TLDW
Shopify CEO Tobi Lütke sat down with Harry Stebbings on 20VC for one of the most candid and controversial conversations of his career. Lütke argues that the current wave of mass layoffs has nothing to do with AI and everything to do with pandemic-era overhiring, but AI will be blamed because it cannot fight back. He blasts Canada for its “Trump Derangement Syndrome,” calls the climate cult “one of the most evil things wrought on the population,” reveals that over 50% of Shopify’s code is now AI-generated, and says many of his best engineers have not written a line of code since December when Claude Opus changed everything. He also introduces River, an AI engineer at Shopify that named itself, and explains why he believes context engineering will be the dominant role of the next five years.
Key Takeaways
- AI is not causing layoffs, COVID overhiring is. Lütke is blunt: “What you see right now is not AI layoffs. Those are just the companies that are really slow that overhired just like everyone else.” AI will get blamed for everything because it is the perfect Girardian scapegoat that cannot fight back.
- Over 50% of Shopify’s code is now AI-generated and “converting to much higher numbers.” Many of Shopify’s best engineers have not written code this year. December 2025 and the release of Claude Opus changed everything.
- Senior engineers became more valuable, not less. Lütke initially thought new grads with no priors would dominate the AI native era. He was wrong. Senior engineers steer agents better because steering is the new programming, and reps matter more than ever.
- Context engineering will become the dominant role within 5 years. A new product builder role is emerging that subsumes engineering, design, and product management, focused on coordinating intelligent actors (humans and AI) to ship products.
- “River” is Shopify’s AI engineer that named itself. Built first, then asked what name it wanted. River lives in Slack, ships engineering work, and learns publicly because it is steered through public Slack channels.
- Builders are “eights” on the Enneagram and companies actively conspire against them. Eights call out nonsense, refuse fancy dressing, and are dangerous to colleagues’ careers. They rarely get promoted, often leave, and start companies. Shopify is “remarkably high on eights” because Lütke seeks them out.
- Canada has “Trump Derangement Syndrome.” Over 60% of Canadians believe the United States is a bigger threat than Russia or China. Lütke calls this “stunning” and wrong. Canada’s only winning strategy historically has been “winning by helping America win.”
- Canada should be the richest country on Earth. It has every resource the world needs for the next 20 years. Lütke wants pipelines built, industry built, refining done domestically, and an end to exporting raw resources to have other countries make end products.
- Be deeply suspicious of “non-profit.” Lütke argues opting out of the only fitness function that has ever pulled people out of poverty (markets) and refusing to disclose your actual fitness function is a red flag. Non-profits replace merit with pull.
- The climate cult is blocking civilization. Lütke called it “one of the most evil things wrought on the population” and pointed to anti-nuclear green parties and frog protection laws blocking factories as examples of policy capture.
- The Chinese AI threat is real but misunderstood. The bigger concern is that if Western governments restrict children from using AI, kids will simply download Chinese open-weight models, train on collectivist worldviews, and stop ever writing high school essays about Tiananmen Square.
- Markets are the most democratic system that exists. Every dollar spent is a vote. Capital allocation by hundreds of millions of consumers is more democratic than any election.
- Friedrich List and the Prussian school over Adam Smith. Lütke prefers a model where governments define excellent games with positive externalities, then completely get out of the way and let competition do the rest.
- Shopify’s biggest mistake was going into physical logistics right before AI got really good. Lütke initially defended the decision based on what he knew at the time, but later admitted he was probably just wrong.
- Lütke does not look at the stock price. It has been at least 23 days since he last checked. He runs Shopify on product instincts, not market signals.
- Great leaders must be exothermic. A CEO is a heat source for the company. Lütke prefers “temperature” to “chaos” because chaos has too negative a connotation.
- Don’t go to university for university’s sake. Get a degree from somewhere hard to get into so you are surrounded by people who also fought to get in. Better yet, join a small company where you can actually be of value.
- Entrepreneurship is the most AI-safe AND most AI-benefiting job. Lütke sees a coming golden age of entrepreneurship where priors no longer matter and AI co-founders eliminate the need to grow up around business.
- “You can just do things” is the rallying cry Lütke wants to ingrain in the world. Action causes information. The cost of trying is lower than ever.
- The demonization of wealth in America is misdirected. No one gets to a billion dollars by stealing. Builders create products that people vote for with their money, the most democratic act in any economy.
Detailed Summary
Harry Stebbings opens by asking Tobi Lütke whether entrepreneurs are motivated by fear of losing or hunger to win. Lütke says he is still figuring out his own answer, but argues that both extremes lead to short-term thinking. The real unlock is taking a long perspective, because compound advantages only accrue when you are willing to wait.
Builders Are “Eights” and Companies Conspire Against Them
Lütke explains the Enneagram personality framework and identifies himself as an “eight,” the type that refuses to accept that any organization’s output is acceptable just because it is dressed up nicely. Eights call out nonsense, are dangerous to careers around them, rarely get promoted in professionally managed companies, and often leave to start their own businesses. Shopify deliberately overweights eights in its hiring. Lütke also says people who build companies are “fundamentally crazy people” and that the public image of leadership comes from movies, not reality. He never wanted to be CEO but realized you cannot run a product driven company without controlling the company itself, because product needs and company needs only converge on a three-year horizon.
The Luxury of Long-Term Thinking as a Public Company
Stebbings asks if a public company can really afford long-term thinking. Lütke says trusted public companies are the best position to be in. The chasm to cross is from trusted private to untrusted public, which is why so many founders refuse to IPO. Shopify went public 11 years ago at a 1.67 billion dollar valuation when revenues were a fraction of today’s. The valuation is now roughly 100x higher. Lütke walks through the IPO mechanics: investment bankers serve the buy side, not the company, and Lütke priced his offering above range because he knew where his growth would come from. The first trade closed about 10 dollars higher, which he calls a “good performance” but a teaching moment about market price discovery.
AI Is the Perfect Scapegoat for Mass Layoffs
This is where the conversation gets explosive. Lütke says Shopify employs about 7,500 to 8,000 people today and his real hope is to have the same number in five years, but at 100x productivity. He argues that the layoffs sweeping the tech industry have nothing to do with AI. They are the result of pandemic-era overhiring catching up to slow-moving companies. But AI will get blamed for everything because it is the perfect Girardian scapegoat. It cannot defend itself, it has no PR team, and an entire industry of doomers is already trained to point at it. Lütke says his own industry has been “gaslighting everyone into AI fear” and science fiction did the same for 60 years before that.
His own use of AI is what he calls utopian. Tasks that used to be hard are easy. Most jobs, he argues, are not actually good jobs to begin with. Being a human task queue is not a great job. Great jobs involve agency and creation. As AI gets cheaper, purchasing power explodes, and people will get options to do things on weekends that are vastly more productive than their day jobs ever were.
Markets Are the Most Democratic Mechanism Ever Invented
Lütke pivots into a long defense of capitalism as the most democratic system in existence. Every dollar spent is a vote, far more frequent and more granular than any election. He uses Elon Musk and Tesla as examples. Lütke owns a Model Y, did not touch the steering wheel that morning, and uses Starlink in the back to work on long drives. He posts on X and gets replies from Japan in real time. He calls Musk a “one man engine” who has captured a tiny percentage of the value he created. He extends this to Shopify itself: Lütke owns 6% of the company, which means 94% is owned by other people who all made money. Plus roughly 10 million people work in the broader Shopify ecosystem on customer fulfillment, web design, customer service, and more.
Why “Non-Profit” Should Make You Suspicious
Lütke targets the charity industrial complex. He argues that non-profits opt out of the only mechanism humanity has ever invented to lift people out of poverty (markets), and they fail to articulate what their actual fitness function is. The result is that “merit of organization is replaced with pull of individuals.” Smooth talkers, not builders, end up running these institutions. He acknowledges Carnegie’s libraries and a few exceptions but believes the ratio of charity dollars to good outcomes is dramatically off. He is far more enthusiastic about funders like MacKenzie Scott who give in unrestricted ways, and even more enthusiastic about Jensen Huang and Bloom Energy as compute and infrastructure investments that compound into civilizational gains.
The Prussian School of Economics
Asked about government intervention, Lütke pledges allegiance to Friedrich List and the Prussian school of political economy over Adam Smith and Lassalle. The job of government is to define excellent games where positive externalities accrue to society, then completely get out of the way. He calls the outsourcing of violence to governments “one of the most inspiring things humanity has ever done” because it created the conditions for personal property. But governments are extremely bad at doing things directly. The moment a government runs grocery stores, it costs 10x more, and entrepreneurs have to be enlisted to repair the damage.
Canada’s Trump Derangement Syndrome
Stebbings asks if Lütke is proud of Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney for standing up to Trump. Lütke is unequivocal: no. He calls Carney’s stance “not a credible witness to the reality on the ground.” Canadians, he argues, are “massively overfit to niceness,” which leads to “unkind lies” and lying by omission. Over 60% of Canadians now believe the United States is a bigger threat than Russia or China, which Lütke calls “stunning” and clearly wrong. Canada is a small economy attached to a hegemon, and the only winning strategy in its history has been winning by helping America win.
That said, he agrees with Carney on diversifying the economy, getting closer to Europe, and engaging Asia. But he wants Canada to also “build the [expletive] out of pipelines, build the [expletive] out of our industry, and start refining the stuff ourselves.” Canada has every resource the world needs for the next 20 years and the most educated workforce on Earth. The only obstacle is political will. Canada’s commercial story has been the same since the beaver pelt era: extract resources, ship them abroad, let other countries make end products. Canada Goose, Lululemon, Shopify, Miller Lite. That is the short list of products Canada actually makes.
The Real Chinese Threat
Lütke says the Chinese AI threat is both underestimated and overestimated. The bigger threat, he argues, is government overreach. If Western governments start dictating which AI models children can use, kids will simply download Chinese open-weight models. He notes that Chinese models, especially when prompted in Chinese, exhibit a clearly collectivist worldview. The risk is that an entire generation of students writes essays through models trained never to mention Tiananmen Square. He frames the broader political battle as collectivism versus individualism and says everything else is smoke screening.
Fixing Europe and the Climate Cult
Asked what he would do as president of Europe, Lütke begins by saying you have to “get rid of the climate cult.” He calls it “one of the most evil things wrought on the population,” citing green parties whose founding myth is that nuclear power is bad, and infrastructure projects blocked because of one frog breeding in one creek. He argues that very few people have the capability to truly build, and they need both enablement and accountability from the village. Beyond that, he wants Europe to follow the Prussian playbook: build excellent games, build infrastructure, and use the resulting wealth to sculpt the economy you want.
Shopify’s Biggest Mistake
Lütke says his biggest public mistake was Shopify’s full push into physical logistics and warehousing right before AI capabilities exploded. Initially he defended the decision as correct based on the information available at the time, but later admitted he probably just got it wrong. The hardest part was that real people lost their jobs when Shopify exited.
Great Leaders Are a Heat Source
Lütke previously talked about CEOs injecting “chaos” into organizations. He now prefers “temperature.” Heat is atoms jiggling. Great leaders must be exothermic, providing energy that flows through the organization. He says he hasn’t checked Shopify’s stock price in at least 23 days. Most public company CEOs are obsessed with their stock. Lütke runs on product instincts.
Senior Engineers Don’t Write Code Anymore
Lütke admits he was wrong about new grads having an AI native advantage. Some are exceptional (he hired a 13-year-old intern from Waterloo whose mother accompanies him to classes), but on the whole, senior engineers steer agents better than juniors do because they have done more reps. Programming is not gone. Programming has become higher level. Engineers massively underestimate how important steering is. Steering is just programming at a higher altitude.
The Role That Will Dominate in 5 Years
Lütke says context engineering, a term he had a hand in popularizing, will become a standard role within five years. It will likely subsume parts of product, design, and engineering management. The best AI programmers right now, surprisingly, are people from engineering management because they have been prompting intelligent agents (humans) for years. Good communicators are good thinkers because communication is distillation.
River, the AI Engineer That Named Itself
Shopify built an AI engineer that lives in Slack. They built it first, then asked it what name it wanted. The AI chose “River” because Shopify’s monolithic repository is called “world” and rivers shape worlds. River does an enormous amount of Shopify’s engineering, taking instructions through public Slack channels so that the entire company can learn from how others steer it.
Over 50% of Shopify’s Code Is AI-Generated
The number is “a fair deal over 50%” and “converting to much higher.” Many of Shopify’s best engineers have not written code this year, with the inflection point being December 2025 and the release of Claude Opus. Lütke himself still writes code occasionally, especially the data structure layer where he applies what he calls a “German school” of engineering: figure out how data persists on disk, then build everything else on top. Once that is right, the rest can be vibe coded by AI.
Should His Kids Go to University?
Lütke says he would not push his kids to attend university for its own sake. The value of a hard to enter program is being surrounded by people who also fought to get in. Better still: get into the room with people who are obsessed with the topic you care about. He thinks joining a small startup where you can actually be of value is often a superior path. He addresses nepotism directly. His instinct is that nepotism is bad. The gold standard is double-blind merit. But double-blind merit barely exists anywhere, and intersectional academic hiring criteria in Canada are arguably worse than nepotism.
Final Reflections
Lütke ends with what he calls the best advice he knows: “You can just do things.” The system exists to push everyone toward acceptable outcomes, but if you know what a good outcome looks like, you can step out of the system and try. Action causes information. The cost is lower than ever. The only constraint is that the experiment cannot have victims.
He also addresses the demonization of wealth. No one gets to a billion dollars by stealing. Builders create products people vote for, the most democratic act there is. Buying from a local shop is voting for the welfare and future of local shops. Constructive criticism is itself something someone has to build, and Lütke welcomes it. Lazy criticism, hot takes, and bad faith arguments are corrosive and should be held in contempt.
He is bullish on AI as a counterweight to information warfare. A council of AI models trained in different countries (Chinese, German, French, American) could fact check claims with multiple perspectives. The “@grok is this true” reflex on X is, he says, a primordial version of this. The information asymmetry that has favored bad faith actors for decades is about to flip.
Thoughts
This interview is a window into the operating philosophy of one of the most successful technical founders alive, and it is far more provocative than most of his public appearances. The headline claim, that AI is a scapegoat for layoffs caused by pandemic overhiring, deserves to be repeated until it sinks in. Every CEO who lays people off and then writes a memo about “AI driven efficiency” is taking advantage of a narrative that AI cannot push back against. The math is plain: if you doubled your headcount in 2021 and 2022 and now you are firing 15%, you are not net displaced by AI. You are correcting a hiring mistake.
The 50% AI generated code statistic is the bigger story. Shopify is not a small company. 8,000 employees and 7 billion in revenue is enterprise scale. If a company that mature has crossed the 50% threshold and is “converting to much higher numbers,” the implication for the broader software industry is enormous. The senior engineer compounding observation is also subtle and important. If steering is the new programming, then the senior pool is more valuable, not less, and the pipeline problem for junior developers gets harder to solve. Companies that under invested in junior training during ZIRP will face an experience cliff in five years.
Lütke’s Canadian commentary will offend many readers in his home country, which seems to be exactly the point. The “lying by omission” critique of Canadian niceness is sharp and accurate. The 60%+ of Canadians who view the US as their largest threat is genuinely a remarkable statistic, and it has implications for trade policy, capital flows, and immigration. Whether or not you agree with his political read, his prescription is unambiguous and pro-growth: build pipelines, refine resources domestically, stop being content as a feedstock economy.
The non-profit critique deserves more public debate. The fitness function point, that markets reveal preferences and non-profits opt out of preference revelation while not disclosing what they optimize for, is a sharp economic argument. The pull versus merit observation about who ends up running large foundations rings true to anyone who has worked adjacent to the philanthropic sector.
The introduction of River as an AI engineer that named itself is a small detail that signals where this is going. AI agents are going from tools to teammates with identities, channels, and reputations. The fact that River shapes the “world” repository is poetic, and the public Slack steering pattern is a real innovation in how organizations can scale agentic AI without creating siloed knowledge.
Lütke’s “you can just do things” rallying cry is ultimately what ties the entire interview together. Whether he is talking about Canada, Europe, AI engineers, or his own kids, the through line is the same: action causes information, the cost of trying is lower than ever, and the only people who will benefit from the next decade are the ones who refuse to wait for permission. This is the most useful piece of philosophy in the entire conversation, and it applies far beyond entrepreneurship.
