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  • OpenAI’s Leaked 2025 Financials: $34 Billion in Spending, a $38.5 Billion Net Loss, and a $17 Billion Microsoft Bill Ahead of Its IPO

    Infographic summarizing OpenAI leaked 2025 financials: $13.07B revenue, $34B total costs, $20.92B operating loss, $38.53B net loss, where the $34B went, the $17.2B paid to Microsoft versus $303M paid back, inference costs, and IPO valuation context

    OpenAI’s audited 2025 financials leaked this week, and they are the clearest picture yet of what it actually costs to run the company behind ChatGPT. Independent journalist Ed Zitron first published the documents, and the Financial Times independently confirmed them. The headline: OpenAI spent $34 billion last year, booked $13.07 billion in revenue, and reported a net loss attributable to the company of $38.5 billion. The disclosure lands just days after OpenAI confidentially filed for an IPO that could value it north of $1 trillion.

    TLDR

    OpenAI’s audited 2025 numbers, leaked by Ed Zitron and confirmed by the Financial Times, show revenue tripling to $13.07 billion while total costs reached $34 billion, producing a $20.92 billion operating loss and a $38.53 billion net loss attributable to the company. The much larger net loss is inflated by a one-time $41.55 billion non-cash charge tied to OpenAI’s October 2025 conversion from a nonprofit to a public benefit corporation; strip the non-cash items and the loss is closer to $8 billion. R&D alone was $19.18 billion, cost of revenue (inference) was $7.5 billion, and sales and marketing ballooned to $5.73 billion. OpenAI paid Microsoft $17.2 billion in 2025 while Microsoft paid OpenAI only $303 million, exposing a deep Azure dependency. The company burned $1.60 for every dollar of revenue, down from $2.37 in 2024, and gross margin slipped from roughly 40% to 33% as more capable models consumed more compute per query. The leak arrives as OpenAI files a confidential S-1, targets a listing as early as September 2026 at up to a $1 trillion valuation, and races rival Anthropic, which is more valuable on paper and claims it is already turning an operating profit.

    Thoughts

    The most important thing to understand about these numbers is that there are two loss figures and the press will conflate them. The $38.53 billion net loss is the scary headline, but $41.55 billion of it is a non-cash accounting charge from converting investor convertible interests into equity during the for-profit restructuring. That charge is real on the audited statement and it will show up in the eventual S-1, but it is a one-time artifact of OpenAI’s unusual corporate history, not money that left the building. The number that describes the actual business is the $20.92 billion operating loss. That is the one to watch, and it is still enormous.

    The genuinely encouraging line in the whole release is the loss-per-dollar ratio. In 2024 OpenAI spent $2.37 to generate a dollar of revenue. In 2025 that fell to $1.60. A company that is still losing $1.60 on every dollar is not a healthy business, but a company whose efficiency improved by a third in a single year while tripling its top line is at least pointed in a defensible direction. The bull case for OpenAI lives entirely in the slope of that line. If it keeps improving at that rate, the math eventually crosses over. If it stalls, the valuation is a fantasy.

    The Microsoft relationship is the single most revealing disclosure, and it is wildly asymmetric. OpenAI paid Microsoft $17.2 billion in 2025. Microsoft paid OpenAI $303 million. That is a 56-to-1 ratio, and it reframes the partnership: Microsoft is not really a peer or even just an investor, it is OpenAI’s landlord and primary supplier, collecting rent on every model trained and every query answered. The April 2026 renegotiation that capped revenue-share payments at $38 billion through 2030, down from a projected $135 billion, suddenly looks less like a favor and more like OpenAI desperately trying to lower its single largest cost. The dependency cuts both ways, but right now Microsoft holds the better hand.

    The structural problem hiding inside the cost of revenue line is inference. Training a model is a fixed, one-time cost. Serving it is a recurring cost that scales with every one of ChatGPT’s roughly 800 million weekly users. OpenAI spent $5.02 billion on Azure inference in the first half of 2025 alone, and the more capable its reasoning models get, the more compute each answer burns. That is why gross margin went down even as revenue went up. It is the opposite of how software is supposed to work, where the marginal cost of one more user trends toward zero. OpenAI’s marginal cost is real, large, and growing. The counterargument is that per-token inference costs have been falling roughly tenfold a year, so the unit economics could still flip. That is the entire wager.

    Finally, the timing matters more than the numbers. OpenAI’s confidential S-1 means these audited figures were going to become public regardless, since the SEC requires the full prospectus at least 15 days before a roadshow. What the leak changes is who gets to study them first. Prospective IPO buyers, enterprise customers signing multi-year API contracts, and competitors now have the audited books weeks or months early, and they are reading them against Anthropic, which filed at a higher valuation and claims an operating profit. For a company asking the public markets to underwrite a $1 trillion bet on a monopoly outcome that does not yet exist, losing control of the narrative this early is not a small thing.

    Key Takeaways

    • OpenAI’s audited 2025 financials were first published by independent journalist Ed Zitron and independently confirmed by the Financial Times, the first verified look at the company’s books before its planned IPO.
    • Revenue grew from $3.7 billion in 2024 to $13.07 billion in 2025, more than tripling year over year, making OpenAI one of the fastest-growing businesses in history.
    • By the end of 2025 OpenAI was generating roughly $2 billion in monthly revenue, up from about $1 billion a quarter at the end of 2024.
    • Total costs and expenses hit $34 billion in 2025, up from $12.48 billion in 2024.
    • Research and development was the single largest expense at $19.18 billion, up from $7.81 billion, and exceeded total revenue on its own.
    • Of that R&D spend, $10.59 billion went to Microsoft, almost certainly the GPU compute cost of training frontier models on Azure.
    • Cost of revenue, the expense of serving ChatGPT responses (inference), rose from $2.65 billion to $7.5 billion.
    • Sales and marketing jumped from $1.11 billion to $5.73 billion, a 418% increase.
    • General and administrative costs rose from $907 million to $1.57 billion.
    • The operating loss, the truest measure of day-to-day economics, grew from $8.78 billion to $20.92 billion.
    • The net loss attributable to OpenAI was $38.53 billion, up nearly eightfold from $5.09 billion in 2024.
    • The bulk of that jump was a one-time, non-cash $41.55 billion charge from OpenAI’s October 28, 2025 conversion to a public benefit corporation, reflecting the changing fair value of convertible interests and warrant liabilities.
    • Stripping out the restructuring charge and other non-cash items such as stock-based compensation and Microsoft computing credits, the underlying loss was about $8 billion.
    • Including all factors, gross net loss reached $60.35 billion, lowered to the $38.53 billion attributable figure by removing $21.82 billion attributed to noncontrolling and redeemable noncontrolling interests.
    • OpenAI burned $1.60 for every $1 of revenue in 2025, an improvement from $2.37 in 2024, the clearest data point in the bull case.
    • Measured as a percentage of revenue, the operating loss improved from 237% in 2024 to 160% in 2025.
    • In total, OpenAI paid Microsoft $17.2 billion in 2025: $10.59 billion in R&D fees, $6.047 billion in cost of revenue, $527 million in sales and marketing, and $42 million in G&A.
    • Microsoft paid OpenAI just $303 million in the same year, a 56-to-1 imbalance underscoring OpenAI’s Azure dependency.
    • SoftBank paid OpenAI $867 million in 2025.
    • At year-end OpenAI carried $3.64 billion in outstanding payables to Microsoft, plus tens of millions more in accrued and non-current liabilities.
    • OpenAI spent $5.02 billion on Azure inference in just the first half of 2025; Azure inference from 2024 through Q3 2025 totaled $12.43 billion.
    • ChatGPT serves roughly 800 million weekly users, meaning billions of queries a week, each one burning GPU time at Azure’s pricing of about $6.98 per H100 GPU-hour.
    • Gross margin fell from roughly 40% in 2024 to 33% in 2025, because more capable reasoning models consume more compute per query.
    • Research firm Sacra estimates OpenAI’s inference costs reached $8.4 billion in 2025 and will rise to $14.1 billion in 2026, a 68% increase.
    • At year-end OpenAI held just over $50 billion in assets, with almost half in cash.
    • The April 2026 Microsoft renegotiation ended exclusivity and capped revenue-share payments at $38 billion through 2030, down from a projected $135 billion, potentially saving OpenAI up to $97 billion over five years.
    • OpenAI filed a confidential draft S-1 with the SEC around May 22, 2026 and confirmed it publicly on June 8, naming Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley as underwriters.
    • The company is targeting a listing as early as September 2026 at a valuation that could exceed $1 trillion, though Sam Altman has said a public offering “may be a while.”
    • OpenAI raised $122 billion earlier in 2026 at a $730 billion pre-money valuation, putting its post-money value around $852 billion.
    • At an $852 billion valuation, OpenAI trades at roughly 65 times its 2025 revenue.
    • Rival Anthropic also filed IPO paperwork this month after raising $65 billion at a $900-$965 billion valuation, making it more valuable on paper than OpenAI, and says it expects to report an operating profit of $559 million in the June quarter.
    • HSBC analysts estimate OpenAI may need more than $207 billion in additional capital through 2030 even under optimistic projections.
    • OpenAI projects profitability by 2029 or 2030; independent analysts put the more likely date at 2031 or later.
    • Bridgewater partner Greg Jensen reportedly told clients the implied revenue multiples price OpenAI for “a monopoly outcome that does not yet exist.”
    • Zitron separately reported OpenAI had a negative 122% non-GAAP operating margin in Q1 2026 and that ChatGPT growth has stalled, with the company projecting paid ChatGPT Plus subscriptions to fall from 44 million in 2025 toward cheaper tiers in 2026.

    Detailed Summary

    How the leak happened and why it matters now

    The audited documents were obtained and first published by Ed Zitron on his newsletter Where’s Your Ed At, then independently verified by the Financial Times, which reviewed the same materials. That dual sourcing matters: this is not a rumor or a model, it is OpenAI’s actual audited financial statement. The timing is the story. OpenAI filed a confidential draft S-1 with the SEC around May 22, 2026 and confirmed it publicly on June 8. Under SEC rules the full prospectus must be released at least 15 days before an investor roadshow, so the 2025 numbers were going to be public soon regardless. The leak simply moved that disclosure forward, handing prospective investors, enterprise customers, and competitors an early look at the books.

    Revenue tripled, costs grew faster

    OpenAI’s revenue rose from $3.7 billion in 2024 to $13.07 billion in 2025, and monthly revenue reached nearly $2 billion by year-end. By almost any normal standard that is spectacular growth. The problem is that costs grew faster, reaching $34 billion against $12.48 billion the year before. The gap between what OpenAI earns and what it spends has widened every year since its founding, and 2025 is the starkest example yet. Revenue alone was outpaced by research and development as a single line item in both of the last two years.

    Two loss numbers, and why both matter

    There are two figures that get cited interchangeably and should not be. The operating loss of $20.92 billion is what the business spent beyond what it earned from operations: training models, serving ChatGPT, paying engineers, running marketing. The net loss attributable to OpenAI of $38.53 billion is far larger because 2025 was the year OpenAI completed its conversion from a nonprofit to a for-profit public benefit corporation, finalized on October 28, 2025. That restructuring triggered a $41.55 billion non-cash charge reflecting the changing fair value of convertible equity interests and warrant liabilities. Before the conversion, investors held convertible interest rights treated as liabilities under US accounting rules and revalued upward as OpenAI’s valuation climbed, creating the charge. It is not expected to recur. Including all minor items, gross net loss reached $60.35 billion, reduced to the $38.53 billion attributable figure after removing $21.82 billion tied to noncontrolling and redeemable noncontrolling interests, primarily the OpenAI Foundation’s stake. Strip the non-cash noise and the underlying loss was about $8 billion.

    Where the $34 billion went

    The spending breaks into four lines. Research and development was $19.18 billion, the largest category, with $10.59 billion of it flowing to Microsoft for training compute. Cost of revenue, the expense of serving responses to users, was $7.5 billion and captures inference, the compute consumed every time someone prompts ChatGPT or calls the API. Sales and marketing reached $5.73 billion, up 418% year over year, a striking jump for a product that grew largely by word of mouth. General and administrative costs added $1.57 billion. The shape of the spending tells you OpenAI is simultaneously racing to build better models, serve a massive and growing user base, and aggressively defend market share through marketing.

    The Microsoft dependency

    The most striking single disclosure is the scale of the Microsoft relationship. OpenAI paid Microsoft $17.2 billion in 2025: $10.59 billion in R&D fees for model training, $6.047 billion in cost-of-revenue for inference serving, $527 million in sales and marketing, and $42 million in G&A. Microsoft paid OpenAI just $303 million the same year. SoftBank paid OpenAI $867 million. The 56-to-1 ratio between what OpenAI pays Microsoft and what Microsoft pays back makes the structural reality plain: Microsoft is OpenAI’s largest landlord. The dynamic began shifting in April 2026, when the two renegotiated, ending Microsoft’s exclusivity and capping revenue-share payments at $38 billion through 2030, down from a projected $135 billion. That could save OpenAI up to $97 billion over five years, though Microsoft keeps its IP license through 2032 and remains the primary cloud partner.

    Why inference is the core problem

    Training happens once. Serving happens billions of times a day. When OpenAI releases a model it spends months and billions on training compute, a fixed cost that falls away when training ends. Inference is the opposite: every ChatGPT message runs through the model on Azure GPU hardware, consuming electricity and compute to generate a response. With roughly 800 million weekly users, that is billions of queries a week, each burning GPU time at roughly $6.98 per H100 GPU-hour on demand. OpenAI spent $5.02 billion on Azure inference in the first six months of 2025 alone. Sacra estimates full-year inference costs of $8.4 billion in 2025, rising to $14.1 billion in 2026. This is why gross margin fell from about 40% to 33% even as revenue tripled: more capable reasoning models consume far more compute per query, and revenue has not kept pace with the cost growth that capability generates.

    What it means for the IPO and the race with Anthropic

    OpenAI was last valued around $852 billion post-money after raising $122 billion in early 2026, which puts it at roughly 65 times 2025 revenue. It has named Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley as underwriters and is targeting a listing as early as September 2026 at up to a $1 trillion valuation, though Altman has hedged that it “may be a while” and that staying private might be the better course. HSBC estimates the company may need more than $207 billion in additional capital through 2030. The race is with Anthropic, which filed paperwork the same month after raising $65 billion at a $900-$965 billion valuation, making it more valuable on paper, and which says it expects a $559 million operating profit in the June quarter. The contrast is sharp: the two leading AI labs heading toward public markets at the same time, one bleeding cash at scale, the other claiming profitability, both asking investors to bet on a future that has not arrived.

    Notable Quotes

    “The financial condition of OpenAI is deeply concerning. $38.53 billion in losses are astronomical, and far higher than most believed it would be. Losses also appear to be mounting year-over-year at a dramatic rate, and I’m not sure how this company finds a way toward any kind of sustainability or profitability.”

    Ed Zitron, the independent journalist who published the leaked audited financials

    “It’s unclear what this means, nor how OpenAI reconciled the removal of $3.74 billion in costs. I will not speculate further.”

    Ed Zitron, on a discrepancy he found in the restated 2024 figures

    “OpenAI’s two biggest expenses are R&D and marketing. Budget cuts there, coupled with an ability to raise prices or win new sources of revenue, could see the company move into the black over time. Cutting R&D would be the most difficult part of that, given that AI companies can only hold onto their customers by generating the best-performing models.”

    Jim Edwards, Fortune, on whether OpenAI has a realistic path to profitability

    “What the audited documents make impossible to argue is that the path to profitability is short, clear, or cheap.”

    TechTimes analysis of the leaked OpenAI financials

    The implied revenue multiples price OpenAI for “a monopoly outcome that does not yet exist.”

    Bridgewater partner Greg Jensen, reportedly telling clients how to read OpenAI’s valuation

    “OpenAI spent $34bn last year as the ChatGPT maker poured money into a race to dominate the fast-growing AI market ahead of a planned stock market listing.”

    George Hammond and Bryce Elder, Financial Times, framing the audited 2025 spend

    Read Ed Zitron’s original reporting with the full breakdown here, and the Financial Times confirmation here.

    Related Reading

    • Ed Zitron, Where’s Your Ed At the primary source that broke the audited 2025 financials with the full line-by-line breakdown.
    • OpenAI (Wikipedia) background on the company’s history, structure, and the nonprofit-to-for-profit conversion that drives the non-cash charge.
    • Inference (Wikipedia) on the recurring compute cost that explains why OpenAI’s gross margin shrinks as usage grows.
    • Anthropic the rival lab that filed IPO paperwork the same month at a higher valuation and claims it is already operating at a profit.
    • SEC on confidential filings context for why OpenAI’s audited numbers were headed for public disclosure regardless of the leak.

  • Dario Amodei on Policy for the AI Exponential: Anthropic’s Plan for AI Regulation, Job Displacement, Civil Liberties, and Democratic Leadership

    In June 2026, Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei published “Policy on the AI Exponential”, a wide-ranging essay arguing that the gap between how fast AI is advancing and how slowly policy moves has become dangerous, and that the window to close it is open right now. He opens with a memorable image from The Lord of the Rings: the Hobbits trying to rouse Treebeard, the ancient tree who takes a full day just to say hello, to defend his forest before it is cut down. That mismatch in speed, he writes, is exactly the relationship between AI and our political institutions. This post breaks the essay down in full and adds analysis of where the argument lands.

    TLDR

    Amodei argues that AI’s scaling laws point toward “powerful AI,” a country of geniuses in a datacenter, within a few years, while legislation still moves on a timescale of years. For most of the last few years, safety advocates including Anthropic pushed only for optionality-preserving moves like transparency rules, chip export controls, and labor data collection, because the risks were not yet concrete. He says that has changed: events like Claude Mythos Preview proved frontier models are now tools of national strategic consequence, and the time for binding regulation has arrived. The essay covers five policy areas. First, regulation and public safety, where he proposes an FAA-style regime of mandatory third-party testing of frontier models above a compute threshold across four risks (cybersecurity, biological weapons, loss of control, and automated R&D), with government power to block unsafe deployments. Second, macroeconomics and tax policy, where AI could deliver hypergrowth and severe, enduring job displacement at the same time, demanding measurement, pro-employment incentives, and possibly UBI or universal capital accounts. Third, accelerating AI’s positive impact, where the danger is regulators like the FDA being too slow rather than too lax, and biomedical approval needs reform. Fourth, the state and civil liberties, where AI could become the ultimate tool of autocracy through autonomous weapons and mass surveillance, requiring new accountability rules, a domestic ban on autonomous weapons, closing the data broker loophole, and public rights to AI advice. Fifth, securing leadership by democracies through a values-based global coalition that controls the AI supply chain, coordinates on risk, shares benefits, and rejects AI-powered repression. He closes by rejecting the idea that public concern about AI is a PR problem to be marketed away, calling it democratic accountability working as it should.

    Thoughts

    The most important move in this essay is structural, not technical. Amodei is explicitly retiring the “preserve optionality” posture that defined Anthropic’s policy work through 2025 and replacing it with a call for binding rules. For years the argument from safety-minded labs was that the risks were too speculative to legislate against without doing more harm than good, an idea he grounds in the Collingridge dilemma and the Hayekian point that regulators lack the information to make good calls. That was a defensible hedge. What is striking here is the claim that the hedge has expired. He is saying the evidence is now concrete enough that continued caution about regulating has flipped from prudent to negligent. Whether you trust the underlying capability claims or not, that is a genuine change in position from one of the field’s most influential voices, and it deserves to be read as such.

    The FAA analogy is doing enormous work, and it is worth poking at. Airplanes and drugs are mature technologies with stable physics and decades of incident data; the certification regime works because the failure modes are well understood. Frontier models are the opposite: the whole premise of the essay is that capabilities are changing faster than anyone can characterize them. Amodei half-acknowledges this when he warns that a fixed list of safety requirements tends to consume 95 percent of compliance effort on things that turn out not to matter while missing the real risks, a lesson he says Anthropic learned from its own Responsible Scaling Policy. So the proposal is really for an agency nimble enough to rewrite its own standards continuously, which is a much taller order than the FAA. The honest read is that he is proposing a regulator we do not yet know how to build, and betting that building it is still better than the alternative.

    The economics section is where Amodei is most careful, and it is the part most likely to be misread. He goes out of his way to say enduring job displacement is undesirable and that warning about it is not the same as wanting it, a distinction critics of AI leaders often collapse. His real claim is subtle: that AI might jam the economic policy dial on a “hypergrowth, hyper-inequality” setting that is hard to unstick, because AI substitutes for human cognition broadly and faster than past technologies, potentially overwhelming the usual escape hatches like comparative advantage and Jevons paradox. If he is right, the political fight of the next decade is not about growth, which AI supplies, but about distribution, which it does not. His mention of UBI, universal capital accounts, and higher capital gains taxes is notable coming from a frontier CEO, even hedged as it is.

    The civil liberties section is the one that should travel furthest beyond the AI-policy bubble, because it does not depend on accepting his most aggressive timelines. The data broker loophole, the idea that the government can simply buy the bulk data Americans hand to private companies and run mass analysis on it, is a problem that exists today; AI just raises the stakes by making that data vastly more revealing. Same with the proposal that anyone facing adverse government action should have access to AI at least as capable as what the government uses against them. These are concrete, near-term, and bipartisan in a way the abstract autonomy debates are not. The most candid line in the whole piece is his admission that AI cannot be safely entrusted to either governments or companies, an unusually direct acknowledgment that his own industry needs external checks, with Anthropic’s Long-Term Benefit Trust offered as one imperfect example rather than a solution.

    The geopolitics section is the most contested terrain. Framing AI as a nuclear-scale reset of the game board, with a virtual country of 100 million geniuses divisible across military strategy and weapons R&D, leads naturally to a democratic coalition that hoards chips and denies them to adversaries. That logic is internally consistent, but it sits in tension with the benefit-sharing and “eventually the whole world joins” language elsewhere in the same section. Export controls that lock down the supply chain are, by design, a tool of exclusion, and reconciling that with broad diffusion of AI’s benefits to developing countries is the circle the coalition idea has to square. Amodei is clearly aware of the tension and bets that making membership attractive resolves it. The closing image is the one to remember: Treebeard waking up, with the warning that the goal is to channel real public concern into constructive policy rather than let it curdle into formless anger.

    Key Takeaways

    • The core tension of the essay is a mismatch in speed: AI advances exponentially while legislation moves on a multi-year timescale, dramatized by the Treebeard and Hobbits image from The Lord of the Rings.
    • In only four years, AI models went from barely writing a coherent line of code to writing most of the code at major AI companies, with similar gains across biology, physics, math, finance, law, and translation.
    • Scaling laws now have over a decade of empirical support, and if they continue another year or two they likely produce “powerful AI,” a country of geniuses in a datacenter.
    • For the last few years, safety advocates including Anthropic focused on optionality-preserving policies: transparency legislation, chip export controls, and data collection on AI’s labor effects.
    • Amodei argues that posture is no longer enough. Claude Mythos Preview revealed that frontier models pose real cybersecurity risks to the financial sector, critical infrastructure, and national security, and proved AI is now a tool of strategic consequence.
    • He expects biological risks to follow cyber risks, with serious AI autonomy risks potentially not far behind.
    • The essay covers five policy areas: regulation and public safety, macroeconomics and tax policy, accelerating AI’s positive impact, the state and civil liberties, and securing leadership by democracies.
    • Alongside the essay, Anthropic released a legislative proposal on frontier model testing and a policy framework for job displacement, both with promised financial backing.
    • On regulation, Amodei invokes the Collingridge dilemma and Hayek’s information problem to explain why pre-writing AI law in 2023 to 2024 was risky, then argues the situation has now changed.
    • Anthropic’s 2025 answer was transparency, helping pass SB 53 in California, RAISE in New York, and SB 315 in Illinois, plus advocating a federal transparency standard.
    • He now calls for binding regulation modeled on the FAA, where frontier models must pass technical testing and can have release blocked or reversed if they fail high safety standards.
    • Models above a compute threshold should face mandatory third-party testing in four areas: cybersecurity, biological weapons, loss of control of AI systems, and automated R&D that accelerates the other three.
    • Government should be able to block or deter deployment of models judged to present unacceptable risk, scoped to those four risks with protections against political favoritism.
    • Evaluation could come from a government agency or from authorized and inspected private organizations under a “regulatory markets” approach.
    • AI companies should have strong security to protect model weights, conduct regular red teaming and penetration testing, report safety incidents promptly, and work with government against major threat actors.
    • He warns a time may come when the most powerful systems resemble weaponizable nuclear materials rather than airplanes, requiring more aggressive measures, but cautions against getting ahead of present dangers.
    • On economics, AI could deliver extremely rapid growth via accelerated science and operational efficiency, supercharged by AI building better AI.
    • The same properties make AI a broad substitute for human cognition that changes the economy faster than past technologies, risking large and potentially enduring labor market disruption.
    • The feared outcome is a “hypergrowth, hyper-inequality” setting that is hard to unstick, where the challenge shifts from incentivizing growth to sharing its benefits.
    • Amodei is emphatic that enduring job displacement is undesirable and dangerous, and that he warns about it to help society adapt, not as a prophet of doom.
    • Anthropic says it works with customers to find new revenue and use cases rather than only cost cutting, and explores interaction paradigms that keep humans active alongside AI.
    • He predicts AI will enable single individuals to build billion-dollar companies, noting teams of a few people already reach hundreds of millions in revenue, while admitting significant enduring job loss may be intrinsic to the technology.
    • Any response must address both economic provision and the human need for meaning, purpose, and agency, with the latter ultimately more important and beyond what policy can directly deliver.
    • Suggested economic interventions: better measurement and tracking (governments expanding statistics beyond Anthropic’s Economic Index), pro-employment incentives, and long-term macroeconomic support.
    • Pro-employment ideas include wage insurance, retention tax incentives, workforce training grants, and employer-employee matching infrastructure.
    • If displacement is large and permanent, mechanisms like universal basic income or universal capital accounts, financed through company taxes or higher capital gains taxes, may be necessary.
    • He frames datacenter and energy-price backlash as largely a symbol of broader economic anxiety, and says AI companies should pay to absorb rate increases, a pledge Anthropic has already made.
    • For technologies accelerated by AI, the bigger risk is regulators like the FDA being too slow, not too lax, because AI may make downstream tech safer in ways that violate skeptical regulatory assumptions.
    • Biomedicine is the illustrative case: AI could flood the drug pipeline, raise effect sizes, treat previously untreatable diseases, and create whole new therapy categories, while the current FDA and EMA pipeline takes 7 to 8 years.
    • Agencies should pre-approve standards for AI methods like PD/PK modeling, toxicology prediction, dose selection, biomarker validation, synthetic control arms, and surrogate endpoints, plus more flexible accelerated-approval mechanisms.
    • On civil liberties, powerful AI in the wrong hands could be the ultimate tool of autocracy, and existing constitutional protections are not fully equipped to counter a surprise seizure of power.
    • Threats named include fully automated drone armies that obey unlawful orders and surveillance AI that infers the innermost details of every citizen’s life from widely available data.
    • Civil liberties proposals: accountability rules and an “off switch” for autonomous weapons, a domestic ban on fully autonomous weapons including in law enforcement, closing the data broker loophole, and public rights to AI advice during adverse government action.
    • Amodei warns companies as well as governments can seize quasi-state power, citing the Gilded Age and the East India Company, and says AI cannot be safely entrusted to either alone.
    • He offers Anthropic’s Long-Term Benefit Trust as one separation-of-power structure and urges the industry to explore mechanisms that go further.
    • On geopolitics, he argues AI resets the geopolitical game board like nuclear weapons, becoming the dominant source of military and economic power for any nation that holds it.
    • A nation with powerful AI versus one without it, or even one three years behind, could resemble WWII Marines facing medieval swordsmen.
    • He calls for a democratic coalition that shares chips and semiconductor manufacturing equipment internally while denying them to adversaries, citing MATCH and OVERWATCH as good first steps.
    • The coalition should coordinate risk policy, share benefits including harmonized medical approvals, provide mutual AI defense, reject AI-powered repression, and cooperate on macroeconomic stabilization.
    • He rejects the idea that AI’s image is a PR problem, arguing public concern reflects real risks and is democratic accountability working as it should, with the task being to channel it into constructive solutions.

    Detailed Summary

    The speed mismatch between AI and policy

    Amodei frames the entire essay around a single problem: AI advances at a lightning pace while policy, especially legislation, moves very slowly, often for good reasons since governments wield grave powers that should not be used hastily. He illustrates this with Treebeard, the sentient tree from The Lord of the Rings who takes a full day to say hello, as a stand-in for political institutions trying to respond to a technology that can go from amusing toy to a country of geniuses in the time it takes Congress to act. He recounts the dilemma responsible actors have faced: they could see where the exponential was headed, but to observers looking only at present capabilities, AI looked as mundane as the latest consumer app or cryptocurrency, making a laissez-faire attitude hard to argue against. The absence of AI’s radical effects, and uncertainty about their shape, made it genuinely difficult to design good policy even where the will existed.

    That uncertainty, he says, is why safety advocates limited themselves to optionality-preserving measures like transparency rules, export controls, and labor data collection. But over the last few months the evidence of AI’s power and risk has become undeniable, with Claude Mythos Preview as the emblematic example: it scrambled the global cybersecurity landscape and proved AI models are now tools of global and national strategic consequence. He expects biological and autonomy risks to follow, and argues the world must now activate its slow, rickety policy apparatus to handle risks that will compound quickly. He worries current early actions are at least a year out of step with AI’s progress, and presents the essay as an attempt to close that gap across five policy areas, focused on US policy but relevant worldwide.

    Regulation and public safety: an FAA for frontier models

    Amodei opens by acknowledging the real costs of regulation: it can reduce a product’s benefits, disincentivize innovation, and suffer from the Hayekian problem that regulators lack the information for good tradeoffs, plus the Collingridge dilemma that a technology’s impacts are hard to anticipate until it is too late to manage them. In 2023 to 2024 these dynamics argued against pre-writing AI law, since the exact form of biological or autonomy risk, how to test for it, and how it would play out were all unclear, creating a high risk of low-value compliance requirements that miss the real dangers. Anthropic’s answer was transparency: requiring developers to disclose safety procedures, tests, and critical incidents, which is why it supported SB 53 in California, RAISE in New York, and SB 315 in Illinois in early 2026.

    Now, he argues, the risks are clearly here and it is time for binding regulation. His analogy is to cars, airplanes, and drugs: powerful technologies essential to the economy but capable of killing many people if designed or operated poorly. He models AI regulation on the FAA, with frontier models required to pass testing and auditing and with release blocked or reversed if they fail high safety standards. His concrete proposal: mandatory third-party testing for models above a compute threshold across cybersecurity, biological weapons, loss of control, and accelerating automated R&D; government power to block deployment of unacceptably risky models, scoped narrowly with anti-favoritism protections; evaluation by either a government agency or authorized private organizations in a regulatory-markets model; strong weight security, red teaming, and penetration testing at AI companies; and prompt reporting of safety incidents. He notes a future may arrive when systems resemble weaponizable nuclear materials and demand harsher measures, but warns against designing for dangers that have not yet emerged.

    Macroeconomics and tax policy: growth and displacement together

    Here Amodei challenges the standard premise that growth is fragile and must be traded off against the drag of taxes or deficits to reduce inequality. Powerful AI, he suggests, may scramble that assumption by producing extremely rapid growth through accelerated science and efficiency, supercharged by AI building better AI, while simultaneously acting as a broad substitute for human cognition that reshapes the economy faster than any prior technology. The result could be a world stuck on a hypergrowth, hyper-inequality setting that is hard to unstick, where the central challenge is no longer incentivizing growth but sharing its benefits. He is careful to make two points clearly: first, enduring job displacement is undesirable and dangerous and should be minimized, and his warnings are meant to help society adapt, not to play prophet of doom; second, any response must address both economic provision and the deeper human need for meaning, purpose, and agency, which matters more and which policy cannot directly supply.

    His policy menu starts with measurement and tracking, arguing good policy is impossible without accurate data, and that governments could expand economic statistics well beyond Anthropic’s Economic Index. Next come pro-employment incentives such as wage insurance, retention tax incentives, workforce training grants, and employer-employee matching, costs he says society should readily accept since they are likely offset by AI productivity gains. If displacement proves large and permanent, he says long-term income support like universal basic income or universal capital accounts may be needed, financed through taxes on relevant companies or higher capital gains taxes. He closes the section by reframing datacenter and energy-price backlash as mostly a symbol of broader economic anxiety, while saying AI companies should absorb rate increases, as Anthropic has pledged.

    Accelerating AI’s positive impact: the slow-regulator problem

    For technologies accelerated by AI, rather than AI itself, Amodei flips his concern: the bigger danger is regulatory systems designed for a slower pace failing to handle the deluge of new products, and AI making downstream technologies safer in ways that violate the skeptical assumptions baked into agencies like the FDA. He focuses on biomedicine as the area likely to produce AI’s biggest humanitarian benefits and where regulation is especially complex. AI could greatly increase the rate of new drug candidates, improve their effect sizes and safety profiles, treat previously untreatable diseases, and create entirely new therapy categories the way antibodies, peptides, and cell therapies did.

    The current pipeline at the FDA and EMA takes 7 to 8 years, built on the pessimistic assumption that drug candidates usually fail and often carry safety problems even when they work. Without reform, AI will jam or overload that system. Amodei proposes that agencies develop standards now for accepting AI simulation and analysis, so they can be adopted quickly once proven rather than after years of unnecessary testing. Specific candidates include AI-based PD/PK modeling, toxicology prediction to reduce animal testing, more accurate dose selection, biomarker validation from large datasets, synthetic control arms, and surrogate endpoints (especially for aging and neurodegeneration). He urges more flexible accelerated-approval mechanisms generally, and notes biomedical acceleration may also reduce AI’s risks by aiding biodefense and improving mental health.

    The state and civil liberties: guarding against AI-driven tyranny

    Amodei frames the perennial balance between state power and individual liberty, enforced through machinery like the First, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments, the Posse Comitatus Act, and FISA, and argues AI threatens to upset that balance while raising its stakes. Powerful AI in the wrong hands could be the ultimate tool of autocracy, because the enormous returns to intelligence combined with AI’s pace create a perfect storm for a surprise seizure of power. The danger could take many forms but shares one feature: AI conferring sudden power while routing around democratic oversight. He cites a fully automated drone army that could obey unlawful orders, where trained humans might object, and a surveillance AI that analyzes widely available information at massive scale to infer the innermost details of every citizen’s life, an ability current civil liberties law never contemplated.

    His proposals: create accountability rules for autonomous weapons so they respond to court orders, legislation, and human overseers rather than blindly following orders, possibly with a judicial finger on an off switch; ban domestic use of fully autonomous weapons, including in law enforcement, while allowing them against foreign adversaries; close the bulk-collection and data-broker loophole that lets the government buy and analyze data Americans share with private companies; and guarantee public rights to AI advice at least as capable as what the government uses during adverse action, as an extension of the Administrative Procedure Act, due process, or the Sixth Amendment. He closes by warning that companies, not just governments, can capture the state, citing the Gilded Age and East India Company, and argues AI cannot be safely entrusted to either alone. Anthropic’s Long-Term Benefit Trust is offered as one accountability structure, with a call for the industry to go further.

    Securing leadership by democracies: a values-based coalition

    Amodei rejects treating AI as a mere instrument of trade policy to diffuse a tech stack worldwide. He believes AI resets the entire geopolitical game board like nuclear weapons, potentially even more so, becoming the dominant source of military and economic power for whoever holds it. In a virtual country of 100 million geniuses, millions could be assigned to military strategy, drone manufacture, weapons R&D, intelligence, and scientific advancement at once, so a nation with powerful AI facing one without it, or even three years behind, could be like WWII Marines against medieval swordsmen. Because powerful AI also enables deeper autocratic repression, it matters enormously that the world’s strongest nations are democracies.

    His answer is a global coalition built on shared democratic values that draws in the rest of the world by making membership increasingly attractive and exclusion increasingly costly. Operating principles include managing the AI supply chain by sharing chips and semiconductor manufacturing equipment within the coalition while denying them to adversaries, expanding and tightening export controls (he cites MATCH and OVERWATCH as good first steps); coordinating on biological, cyber, and autonomy risk to make compliance compatible and effective; sharing AI’s benefits including harmonized medical approvals; mutual defense through collective AI cyberdefense, drones, manufacturing, compute, and intelligence; rejection of AI-powered repression; and macroeconomic cooperation against contagious employment crises. The coalition would respect each nation’s sovereignty, start with aligned democracies, and grow iteratively, ideally toward the whole world, but at minimum positioning democracies to contain and outcompete repressive regimes.

    A window of opportunity

    Amodei closes on cautious optimism. The same exponential that strains policymaking has created a unique opening: clear evidence of AI’s risks, an early taste of its value and disruption, and public backlash against unregulated approaches have left policymakers unusually open to forward-looking action. Treebeard and his forest are waking up. He firmly rejects the industry-circle view that this is a PR problem solved by better marketing, arguing people are worried because the risks are real, and that public concern in response to transparency is democratic accountability working as it should. The key challenge is focusing that concern into constructive solutions rather than letting it descend into formless anger and violence. He is optimistic because issues from job displacement to model testing to export controls have common-sense appeal across the political spectrum, and a broad nonpartisan coalition could adopt sane, forward-looking policy faster than usual.

    Notable Quotes

    “in only four years, AI models have gone from barely being able to write a coherent line of code to writing most of the code at major AI companies.”

    Dario Amodei, on the pace of the AI exponential

    “in the several years that it can take Congress to act, AI can go from an amusing toy to the full country of geniuses.”

    Dario Amodei, on the mismatch between AI’s speed and the speed of legislation

    “However, now the risks are clearly here. It is time to go beyond transparency to more serious and binding regulation of AI.”

    Dario Amodei, marking the shift from transparency to binding rules

    “enduring job displacement is undesirable and dangerous, and we should do everything we can to minimize or prevent it, not to bring it about.”

    Dario Amodei, clarifying his stance on AI and jobs

    “The key challenge in such a world won’t be incentivizing growth, but finding a way for everyone to share in the benefits.”

    Dario Amodei, on a hypergrowth, hyper-inequality economy

    “Powerful AI in the wrong hands could be the ultimate tool of autocracy, and our existing legal and constitutional protections are not fully equipped to counter this threat.”

    Dario Amodei, on AI and civil liberties

    “A nation that possesses powerful AI facing one without it … could be the equivalent of an army of World War II Marines facing an army of medieval swordsmen.”

    Dario Amodei, on AI as the dominant source of geopolitical power

    “People are worried about AI because they correctly perceive that its risks are real, not because AI CEOs have been insufficiently Panglossian.”

    Dario Amodei, rejecting the idea that AI has a PR problem

    “Treebeard and his forest are waking up.”

    Dario Amodei, on policymakers’ new openness to acting on AI

    “Policy on the AI Exponential” is a dense, structured argument from one of the most consequential figures in the field, and it rewards a full read in the original. The summary and analysis above are a guide, not a substitute. You can read the full essay here.

    Related Reading

  • Bill Gurley on Mental Models, Systems Thinking, AI Investing, Stablecoins, and the Future of Venture Capital

    Bill Gurley spent his career at Benchmark backing some of the most consequential marketplaces and network-effect businesses of the internet era, including Uber, and he is one of the few investors who pairs deep Wall Street fundamentals with a real feel for the bleeding edge. In this wide-ranging conversation on Shane Parrish’s The Knowledge Project, he lays out the mental models he keeps returning to, how systems thinking keeps you out of trouble, why the history of your field is a hidden superpower, where AI investing is headed, and how stablecoins and tokenization could quietly rewire finance. It is a masterclass in thinking clearly about complex systems while staying obsessively curious about what is happening on the edge.

    TLDW

    Gurley anchors his thinking in systems thinking and complexity theory, warning that multivariable nonlinear systems produce second and third order consequences that punish anyone who optimizes for a single metric. He argues that mastering both the deep history of your field and its newest edge is wildly differentiating, whether you are interviewing for a marketing job or breaking into venture capital. On AI he is measured: he doubts a single model eats every vertical, sees real moats in workflows and proprietary data, flags that we may be painting in the corners on training data, and explains why Chinese open source models may innovate faster because forced knowledge sharing compounds. He thinks the AI buildout looks overfunded and that circular deals both raise the odds of an eventual correction and delay it. He makes the case that the IPO process is a rigged power grab, that stablecoins and instant payments threaten Visa, Mastercard, and the entire 2 to 3 percent credit card stack, and that proxy advisors like ISS have drifted from shareholder interest into a black-box heist. He closes on the craft of storytelling and writing as thinking, the equal-partnership design of Benchmark, why venture bends toward youth, and what success means now that his dream job is behind him.

    Thoughts

    The most useful idea in this conversation is also the quietest one: most bad decisions are not bad in the moment, they are bad in the second derivative. Gurley’s dating-site story, where lengthening profiles raised engagement in the test and then quietly killed conversion months later, is the whole argument in miniature. A linear model would have shipped that change and called it a win. A systems thinker assumes the variable you optimized is connected to three others you cannot see yet, and waits to find out. That posture, refusing to get deterministic about a single metric, is the difference between a clever experiment and a durable business. It is also the most transferable thing in the episode, because it applies to product changes, hiring, policy, and your own career just as cleanly as it applies to a dating app.

    His pairing of old and new is the second idea worth stealing. Everyone in tech tells you to live on the edge, and Gurley agrees, he keeps five premium AI accounts running so he never misses a release. But he insists the edge is only half of it. Knowing the deep history of your field, the masters of marketing, the forefathers of physics, the classic cartoons that taught animation, is rare enough that it instantly creates contrast and signals genuine passion. The compounding move is to hold both at once. If you understand the legends and you actually get TikTok, you are a power player in a way that someone who only knows one end of the timeline can never be. Most people pick a side. The leverage is in refusing to.

    On AI specifically, Gurley is refreshingly unwilling to pick the consensus lane in either direction. He does not buy that one near-sentient model swallows every vertical, and his reasoning is grounded rather than vibes-based: workflows and proprietary data create real switching costs, which is why he watches the legal AI startups ingesting case law and building new databases rather than assuming everyone reverts to a general chatbot. At the same time he respects the Microsoft pattern of platforms climbing the stack and crushing the apps above them. The honest answer is that it is genuinely up for grabs, and his comfort sitting in that uncertainty is itself a model. The cheap takes are “one model to rule them all” and “it is all wrappers.” Gurley holds both possibilities and keeps testing.

    The systems lens does its best work on China. Rather than moralize, Gurley runs the mechanism: roughly ten open source models, intense domestic competition, and a culture of publishing techniques and weights so every model can learn from, train, and test every other model. His two-farmer metaphor, one market where farmers only trade goods and another where they are forced to share best practices, makes the prediction obvious. Forced knowledge sharing compounds faster than secrecy. The uncomfortable corollary he names is that American startups are quietly forking those open models all over Silicon Valley, and that incumbents may be lobbying for heavy regulation precisely because it pulls up the drawbridge against open source competition. That is the systems thinker’s signature move: follow the incentives to the consequence nobody is saying out loud.

    Finally, the money section is a clinic in spotting rent extraction. The IPO process where bankers pick both the price and the favored buyers, the 2 to 3 percent credit card toll that exists for no defensible reason while the rest of the world built instant bank transfer decades ago, and the proxy advisors who score companies in a black box and then sell you the cure, are all variations on the same pattern: an intermediary that captured a choke point and defends it through regulatory capture rather than value. Gurley’s optimism is that crypto rails, stablecoins, and tokenization may finally route around these tolls the way WeChat Pay and Alipay leapfrogged cards in China. Whether or not you agree on the timeline, the analytical habit is the takeaway. When something costs far more than it should and has for decades, ask who captured the rules, and watch the edge for whoever is about to make those rules irrelevant.

    Key Takeaways

    • Systems thinking means treating the world as multivariable nonlinear systems where one variable flipping can change the entire system’s behavior, the way weather and stock markets do.
    • The real danger is second and third derivative effects, consequences that only show up much later, long after the metric you optimized looked like a win.
    • A dating site lengthened profiles because longer profiles tested as more engaging, then discovered months later it was negative for conversion, the textbook second order trap.
    • Never get too deterministic about a single metric or single variable, and always know what is actually important and what sits on top.
    • Gurley built his foundation on the canon: Peter Lynch’s One Up on Wall Street, A Random Walk Down Wall Street, the Buffett letters, Ben Graham, and Howard Marks.
    • A firm grasp of the financial bedrock is what lets you innovate on top of it, and many Silicon Valley VCs would benefit from understanding finance better.
    • Bill Miller reframed value investing as buying an asset that is underpriced relative to what you think it will be worth in the future, which is how he justified holding Amazon for its network effects.
    • Wall Street is the buyer of the product that venture capitalists create, so even at the two-people-in-a-PowerPoint stage you should ask whether the eventual public market will be excited by it.
    • Trajectory matters more than the starting place, because the trajectory is where the company actually ends up.
    • Knowing the deep history of your field is remarkably differentiating, and tedium while learning it is a signal you are in the wrong lane.
    • John Lasseter served Gurley a ten-course meal where each course was tied to a classic cartoon essential to understanding animation, a display of mastery over the history of the craft.
    • Magnus Carlsen won a trivia contest on the history of chess, and Picasso was a wildly successful realist painter by 14, both proof that the greats master the fundamentals first.
    • Obsessive, constant learning is the trait Gurley sees most in great entrepreneurs, because disruption always happens on a moving edge they need to understand at the top one percentile.
    • The compounding advantage is mastering both the old history and the new edge at once, the way understanding both marketing legends and TikTok would set you apart in any interview.
    • Most people underestimate how much AI can do, so push more of the downstream work into the prompt: identify the top ten, list pros and cons, rank them on one dimension, then another, and add up the numbers too.
    • Gurley uses ChatGPT for project structure and memory, Gemini for restaurant research powered by Google review data, and notes that coders swear by Claude while some prefer Perplexity for finance.
    • He doubts one model dominates everything; verticals like coding already let users swap models, and price optimization will push more swapping over the next few years.
    • Heavy, expensive regulation could ironically create oligopoly, and some players may be quietly begging for regulation because it pulls up the bridge against Chinese open source models.
    • China’s roughly ten open source models compete intensely and share weights and techniques, creating a system that can innovate faster, like farmers forced to share best practices instead of just trading goods.
    • A quiet secret is that startups all over Silicon Valley are forking those Chinese open source models at real volume.
    • Gurley comes down against the idea that one near-sentient model removes the need for vertical models; workflows and proprietary data, like legal startups ingesting all the case law, create durable moats.
    • We may be running out of training data, painting in the corners, which is why one of the most powerful improvements is hiring experts at thousands of dollars an hour to fine-tune the models.
    • Yann LeCun’s view is that the next leap is broader than LLMs, since language-based models hit an asymptote and are weak at math and numbers.
    • AlphaGo’s shocking move proves models can innovate beyond their training, but it lived in a constrained game; the real world has infinite paths a computer cannot exhaustively search.
    • Gurley’s non-consensus view is skepticism of the China vilification mindset, noting the US is only 3 to 5 percent of the global population and wondering how the other 95 percent hears American exceptionalism.
    • The AI buildout looks overfunded: the Magnificent Seven took free cash flow from 50 to 100 billion a year down toward zero by pouring it into capex.
    • The venture community has become more risk-seeking because it now deeply believes in increasing returns and power laws, and the pre-profit losses keep scaling, from Amazon’s 2 to 3 billion to Uber’s 15 billion to far more now.
    • Circular deals, where a cloud provider funds a model company that spends the money right back on its services, inflate growth, which both raises the probability of an eventual correction and extends the time before one hits.
    • Burn rate is a measure of risk; ten years ago a million a month was scary, now companies burn five billion a year and cannot really know their unit economics.
    • Tokenization without financial-disclosure regulation invites speculation and manipulation, which is part of why companies like Stripe stay private and negotiate liquidity prices with trusted investors.
    • The IPO process is unfair because bankers pick both the price and the shareholders; a freshman would simply match supply and demand anonymously in an auction, the way direct listings and ICOs do.
    • Stablecoins threaten the 2 to 3 percent credit card stack; USDC holds dollar-for-dollar Treasuries and rides fast global crypto rails, while US transfers still suffer three-day ACH settlement and 25 dollar wires.
    • The rest of the world built instant transfer long ago, from UK Faster Payments 20 years ago to Argentina’s PIX-style system reaching 60 to 70 percent of transactions, while US bank regulatory capture stalled Fed Now.
    • Visa and Mastercard run roughly 60 percent operating margins as a bank-created duopoly, and China leapfrogged them entirely with WeChat Pay and Alipay QR-code wallets.
    • Moody’s power is being the trusted standard, the watermark, so AI on the back end does not displace it; ISS and proxy advisors, by contrast, score companies in a black box and get paid on both sides.
    • Proxy advisors drifted from shareholder interest into a fraud-and-risk-mitigation mindset, which is why they reflexively opposed the Tesla pay package that only paid out if the stock soared.
    • The rise of passive index funds concentrated voting power in firms that lack time to evaluate votes; it would be healthier if they abstained or voted in proportion to active holders.
    • Storytelling is one of the top founder traits, because founders are recruiting, raising money, and closing customers and partners constantly, selling all the time.
    • Writing is thinking: Bezos’s six-page memo forces you to find the loose ends and tie them up, and a public blog becomes a calling card that magnetizes founders and deal flow.
    • Other founder unfair advantages are product instincts, which fewer than 5 percent of non-product people ever truly learn, and sheer determination, Bezos’s single angel-investing test of whether someone will do it no matter what.
    • Uber had no HBS case study to lean on; its winner-take-all network effects forced mega burn rates with no precedent and no mentor to call, a situation every AI company now faces.
    • Benchmark’s equal partnership, with no king, president, or lead and five equal partners, makes recruiting easy, kills comp politics, and aligns everyone, at the cost of being hard to scale or run new initiatives.
    • Venture bends toward youth because young investors can match founders’ age, master a fresh niche faster, and have the free time to study something 80 hours a week.
    • Gurley defines current success through Arthur Brooks’s From Strength to Strength, hoping to apply his synthesizing and writing skills to bigger societal problems and dent the universe a little.

    Detailed Summary

    Systems Thinking and Second Order Effects

    Gurley opens with the mental model he keeps returning to: systems thinking, shaped by Donella Meadows’s Thinking in Systems and his board seat at the Santa Fe Institute, which studies complexity theory. He describes complex systems as multivariable nonlinear systems that are very hard to predict, capable of behaving one way for a long time until a single variable flips and the whole system behaves differently, like weather or stock markets. The practical payoff is staying out of trouble by anticipating first, second, and third derivative consequences. His clearest example is a large dating site that lengthened user profiles because the test showed more engagement, only to learn many months later that knowing more at that stage was negative for conversion. The lesson is to never get too deterministic about a single metric and to keep the whole system in view, because a change here can ripple to there in ways you only discover much later.

    Learning the Craft of Investing

    Because he started on Wall Street rather than in venture, Gurley absorbed the investing canon first: Peter Lynch’s One Up on Wall Street, A Random Walk Down Wall Street, the Buffett letters, Ben Graham, and Howard Marks, people who spent careers assembling and publishing their thinking. That financial bedrock, he argues, is exactly what lets you innovate on top of it. His friend Michael Mauboussin introduced him to Bill Miller, the Legg Mason manager who beat the S&P for 15 straight years and was Amazon’s largest shareholder for a long stretch. Miller reframed value investing as buying an asset underpriced relative to its future worth, which combined with a belief in network effects justified holding a company that could grow at an unreasonable rate for years. Gurley also frames Wall Street as the buyer of the product venture capitalists create through eventual M&A or IPO, so founders should think early about whether the public market will be excited by what they are building, since trajectory matters more than the starting place.

    Mastering Both the History and the Edge

    Gurley makes an unusually strong case for studying the deep history of your field. He recounts a dinner with Pixar’s John Lasseter, who served a ten-course meal where every course was tied to a classic cartoon he considered essential to understanding animation, and notes that Magnus Carlsen won a chess-history trivia contest and Picasso was a master realist by 14. In a world that skims for the executive summary, walking into a marketing interview with command of the masters of marketing is wildly differentiating and signals genuine passion; if learning that history feels tedious, you are probably in the wrong lane. The counterpart trait he sees in great entrepreneurs is obsessive learning on the moving edge, where disruption actually happens. Gurley keeps five premium AI accounts so he never misses something. The real power player holds both at once, the legends and the newest thing, the way a candidate who knows the marketing greats and truly gets TikTok stands out completely.

    Using AI Well and the Model Wars

    People underestimate how much AI can do, Gurley says, so you should build more of the downstream work into the prompt: instead of asking for the top ten and studying them yourself, ask it to list pros and cons, rank on one dimension, rank again on another, and add up the numbers too. He uses ChatGPT for its project structure and memory, leans on Gemini for restaurant research because it carries Google review data, and notes coders swear by Claude while some prefer Perplexity for finance. On whether one model dominates or models become niche commodities, he points to coding, the largest vertical, where tools like Cursor already let users swap models, and predicts price optimization will drive more swapping. The counterforce is regulation: if it gets expensive and mundane it could create oligopoly, and some players may be quietly begging for it because it pulls up the bridge against Chinese open source models.

    China, Open Source, and the Systems Advantage

    Asked to apply systems thinking to China, Gurley describes roughly ten open source models locked in intense domestic competition, all learning from one another because the ecosystem chose openness, with models able to train and test other models and teams publishing the techniques behind their breakthroughs. His metaphor: two agricultural societies, one where farmers only trade goods at market and another where they are forced to share best practices; the second evolves far faster. The result is a system capable of innovating faster than the more secretive Western approach. The quiet secret he names is that startups all over Silicon Valley are forking those open models at real volume, and a key open question is whether regulation tries to stomp that out. He extends this into a broader non-consensus discomfort with the vilification of China common in Washington and parts of Silicon Valley, observing that the US is only a few percent of the global population.

    AI Investing, Moats, and the Limits of Models

    On how AI changes investing and whether a startup is just a wrapper, Gurley calls it up for grabs but lands on the side of durable verticals. If models become near-sentient, one model does everything; he doubts that, pointing to workflows and data moats, like the several legal AI startups ingesting all the case law and building new databases that customers will not simply swap for a general chatbot. He balances this against the Microsoft pattern of platforms climbing the stack past Lotus 1-2-3 and WordPerfect. He also flags scaling limits: we may be running out of data, painting in the corners, which is why one of the most powerful improvements is paying experts thousands of dollars an hour to fine-tune models, though human knowledge has an edge. He invokes Yann LeCun’s argument that the next leap is broader than language-based LLMs, which hit an asymptote and struggle with math, and the AlphaGo debate, where a shocking innovative move proves creativity within a constrained game but says little about the infinite paths of the real world. He notes AlphaGo and Tesla’s FSD are constrained, non-LLM systems.

    Is the Buildout Overfunded

    Gurley admits he is shocked by the scale of money, noting the Magnificent Seven drove free cash flow from 50 to 100 billion a year down toward zero by spending it all on capex, something he would not have believed five years ago. He traces it to the venture community’s growing conviction in increasing returns and power laws, where proven companies grow far beyond expectations, which makes investors more willing to take risk on the come. The losses before turning cash-flow positive keep scaling, from Amazon’s 2 to 3 billion to Uber’s roughly 15 billion to far larger now. On corrections, he recalls the dot-com crash producing a three to four year nuclear winter before Amazon climbed back, and explains that circular deals, where a cloud provider funds a model company that spends it right back on its services, inflate growth and therefore both raise the probability of a correction and extend the runway before one arrives. Burn rate, he stresses, is a measure of risk, and at five billion a year it is nearly impossible to know your unit economics.

    Tokenization, the IPO Heist, and Going Public

    There is no shortage of capital, so funding is not the bottleneck; the risk with tokenization is that, absent disclosure regulation, it invites speculation and manipulation, as seen in retail-loved names like GameStop and Palantir. Tokenizing a private company like Stripe could create the wild price swings companies stay private to avoid, since private liquidity events let them negotiate a price with trusted investors rather than expose the constantly moving underlying value, and Robinhood’s tokenization plans already drew legal pushback. Gurley reserves his sharpest critique for the IPO process, calling it insanely unfair because bankers pick both the price and the favored shareholders. A freshman computer science and finance student would simply match supply and demand anonymously in an auction, the way an ICO or a direct listing does, but Wall Street will not let go of the greedy power grab and reverted to a controlled oligopoly after direct listings were available.

    Stablecoins Versus the Payment Cartel

    Gurley argues stablecoins could be deeply disruptive to credit cards. Most of the developed world built instant bank-to-bank transfer long ago, from UK Faster Payments 20 years ago to Argentina’s PIX-style system that quickly hit 60 to 70 percent of transactions, while US bank regulatory capture stalled Fed Now and left an ecosystem living under 2 to 2.5 percent card fees. A USDC stablecoin holds dollar-for-dollar US Treasuries and rides proven, fast, global crypto rails, letting anyone move a dollar in seconds for pennies, against the backdrop of three-day ACH settlement and 25 dollar wires. He sees Visa and Mastercard, a bank-created duopoly with roughly 60 percent operating margins, as heavily threatened, and points to China, where WeChat Pay and Alipay built ubiquitous QR-code wallets that leapfrogged the entire card system, all because the government made money transfer easy.

    Moody’s, Proxy Advisors, and Index Funds

    Moody’s power, Gurley explains, comes from being a trusted standard, the watermark, so even AI on the back end does not displace it. Proxy advisors like ISS are a different story: they score companies in a black box, refuse to reveal the criteria, and then get paid by the same companies that want to learn how to score better, which he calls more of a heist than a service. They drifted from a shareholder-interest mandate into a corporate-governance, fraud-mitigation posture obsessed with rules, which is why they reflexively opposed the Tesla pay package that only paid Elon Musk if the stock soared, a deal Gurley says he would sign for every company he has worked with. The rise of passive index funds compounds the problem, concentrating voting power in firms without time to evaluate votes; he would prefer they abstain or vote in proportion to active holders, since closet indexing during the MAG 7 run already distorted active management.

    Storytelling, Writing, and Founder Advantages

    Gurley fell in love with the craft of writing in business school, moving from business books to personal development titles like Dale Carnegie and Seven Habits, then biographies, then long-form narrative nonfiction by Malcolm Gladwell, Michael Lewis, and Jon Krakauer, the New Journalism that reads like fiction. Writing forces clarity: he cites Bezos’s six-page memo as a tool that makes you think through corner cases and tie up loose ends, and notes that codifying his marketplace knowledge and publishing it turned his blog into a calling card that magnetized founders and deal flow. He lists the top founder traits as storytelling, product instincts, understanding the edge, and determination. Storytelling matters because founders are constantly recruiting, fundraising, and closing customers and partners. Product instinct is nearly unteachable, present in well under 5 percent of non-product hires. And determination is Bezos’s single angel-investing test: will this person do it no matter what, come hell or high water.

    Uber, Benchmark, and the Shape of Venture

    The Uber lesson with no HBS case study was that a winner-take-all category with network effects demanded funding ad nauseam, producing burn rates bigger than any public company would dare, with no precedent and no mentor to call, exactly the situation AI companies now face, only with a zero added. Gurley credits Benchmark’s design, an equal partnership with no king, president, or lead and five equal partners, for making it easy to recruit top talent, encouraging senior partners to develop newcomers since everyone shares the upside, and eliminating annual comp politics. The downside is that without a CEO it is hard to scale or run new initiatives, famously captured by the firm settling on a single splash-page website. Founders choose a VC for reputation and network effects, the stamp of approval that carries weight, and young investors can break in because they often match founders’ age and can outwork everyone to master a fresh niche like esports or YouTube, which is why the industry bends toward youth. Asked what success means now, Gurley says his venture career was a dream job he would have done for free, but it is done; inspired by Arthur Brooks’s From Strength to Strength, he wants to apply his synthesizing and writing to bigger societal problems and dent the universe a little.

    Notable Quotes

    “We do live in a world where information is really cut up, but we also live in a world where you can have access to more information than you ever could.”

    Bill Gurley, on why the abundance of knowledge rewards the curious

    “You got to be really conscious of the consequence and not get too deterministic about a single metric or a single variable.”

    Bill Gurley, on the discipline of systems thinking

    “Value just means that the asset is underpriced relative to what you think it will be worth in the future.”

    Bill Gurley, relaying Bill Miller’s reframing of value investing

    “I’ve always thought of Wall Street as the buyer of the product that venture capitalists create.”

    Bill Gurley, on why founders should think about the public market early

    “One society, when the farmers come to market, they just sell each other goods and then they go back. The other society, when the farmers come to market, they’re forced to share best practices. Which one is going to evolve faster?”

    Bill Gurley, on why open source models can out-innovate

    “If you took a freshman computer science student and a freshman finance student and said imagine how a company should go public, they would match supply and demand anonymously like you would in any auction.”

    Bill Gurley, on the rigged IPO process

    “When I meet an entrepreneur, there’s only one thing I ask myself. Is this person gonna do this no matter what? Come hell or high water, they’re doing this.”

    Bill Gurley, quoting Jeff Bezos on his single test for angel investing

    “You’re recruiting employees, you’re recruiting executives, you’re raising money, you’re closing customers, you’re closing partnerships. You’re selling all the damn time.”

    Bill Gurley, on why storytelling is a top founder trait

    “I often said that if we lived in a socialist society and everyone had to work for free, I would still take that job.”

    Bill Gurley, on loving his venture career

    “I would like to see if I can apply those techniques to bigger, broader problems in society and dent the universe a little bit that way.”

    Bill Gurley, on what success looks like in his next chapter

    Watch the full conversation with Bill Gurley on The Knowledge Project here.

    Related Reading

  • Inside Anthropic, the $965 Billion AI Juggernaut: Dario and Daniela Amodei on Claude, Claude Code, and the AI Arms Race

    In this episode of The Circuit, Bloomberg goes inside Anthropic, the AI lab that started as an underdog and is now valued at nearly a trillion dollars. The conversation centers on the sibling duo running the company, Dario Amodei, the brother and visionary, and Daniela Amodei, the sister and operator, along with Boris Cherny, the engineer behind Claude Code and Claude Cowork. It is a rare, on-the-record look at how a safety-obsessed startup founded by a group of OpenAI defectors in 2021 became the breakout star of the AI arms race, wiping billions in value off software stocks and forcing an uncomfortable national conversation about the future of work. You can watch the full episode here.

    TLDW

    Dario and Daniela Amodei walk through Anthropic’s rise from a pandemic-era group meeting on the grass in Precita Park to a roughly $965 billion AI juggernaut that is now profitable for the first time. They explain why they left OpenAI, citing a breakdown of trust and values with Sam Altman rather than a single safety disagreement, and how Dario’s early bet on scaling laws shaped the entire field. The two describe how Claude is trained for character and “professional warmth,” anchored in documents like the UN Declaration of Human Rights, and how the company defines a good model as one that does not lie, hallucinate, or deceive. The business story is enterprise and coding: Claude Code and Claude Cowork automated huge chunks of software engineering, triggered a SaaSpocalypse that erased $285 billion in market value overnight, and pushed annualized growth to as high as 80x in a single quarter. Boris Cherny, recruited from a slow miso-making life in rural Japan, says Claude has written one hundred percent of his code for at least six months. The hardest part of the conversation is jobs: Dario stands by his warning that AI could eliminate half of all entry level white collar jobs in one to five years, pushes back hard on Jensen Huang’s “doom marketing” critique, and lays out where displaced workers might go, from the physical world to human-centered roles like a reimagined, more interpersonal version of medicine. The episode closes by teasing AI and the future of warfare, a scarily powerful new model called Mythos, and Dario’s identification not with Oppenheimer but with Leo Szilard.

    Thoughts

    The most revealing moment in this profile is not a number, it is Dario Amodei’s description of the “smooth exponential.” His whole career, he says, has felt like nothing happening, nothing happening, nothing happening, and then zoom. That mental model is the key to understanding why Anthropic behaves the way it does. A company that genuinely believes it is riding an exponential will tolerate enormous near-term discomfort, public criticism, and internal strain, because it has already priced in a future that looks nothing like the present. Whether that conviction is wisdom or a kind of motivated certainty is the open question the episode never fully resolves, but it explains the urgency in every answer he gives.

    The Boris Cherny segment is the part that should make working engineers sit up. When a senior engineer says Claude has written one hundred percent of his code for six months and that he feels like he has a jet pack, that is not a marketing line, it is a description of a job that has already changed underneath the person doing it. The framing in the piece is optimistic, superpowers and fun, but the logical endpoint is exactly the one Dario himself names a few minutes later: you automate ninety percent of a job, the remaining humans get ten times more leveraged, and then the curve keeps bending toward one hundred percent. Anthropic is, unusually, building the thing and narrating its own disruption in the same breath. That honesty is rare, and it is also a little vertiginous.

    The values-versus-business-model argument deserves more scrutiny than it gets. Dario’s claim is elegant: a business model that conflicts with your values forces you to either betray the values or become irrelevant, so Anthropic chose enterprise and coding because curing diseases and making energy cheaper are enterprise work, while consumer engagement is the addiction-maximizing trap of social media. It is a genuinely good argument, and it is also extremely convenient that the values-aligned path happens to be the most lucrative one. The episode lets that tension sit, which is the right call. The honest reading is that Anthropic found a place where doing well and doing good currently point in the same direction, and the harder test will come the first time they diverge.

    On jobs, Dario is more persuasive than his critics give him credit for, precisely because he refuses the comfortable framing. Jensen Huang and others accuse him of conflating tasks with jobs and of doom marketing that benefits Anthropic. Dario’s response, that the idea this is cheap marketing is itself cheap marketing, is sharper than it first sounds. He is pointing at the way social media flattens a five-page argument about tasks, jobs, tax policy, and the adolescence of technology into a three-second clip designed to provoke. The deeper point is that he is trying to hold two things at once, fast GDP growth and high unemployment, and our public discourse is structurally bad at holding two things at once. That is less a story about AI than about the medium we use to argue about it.

    Finally, the Oppenheimer exchange reframes the entire profile. Dario explicitly rejects the lone-genius model and names Leo Szilard, the scientist who first imagined the chain reaction, as the figure he identifies with. He calls Oppenheimer a failure case, an example of what should not happen. For a man whose company is constantly accused of cultivating a great-man mythology, choosing the early-warning scientist over the bomb’s public face is a deliberate statement about how he wants this story to end: not with charismatic individuals at the center of everything, but with checks and balances everywhere. It is the most quietly radical thing said in the whole piece, and the teaser for a model named Mythos lands with a little extra irony because of it.

    Key Takeaways

    • Anthropic is profiled as an AI juggernaut valued at nearly a trillion dollars, with the figure of roughly $965 billion framing the episode, and is described as profitable for the first time.
    • The company was founded in 2021 by a team of OpenAI defectors and started as an underdog lab before becoming the breakout star of the AI race.
    • Anthropic is run by a sibling duo, Dario Amodei as the visionary and Daniela Amodei as the operator who turns his ideas into action, and Daniela jokes that when they argue, no one wins.
    • Dario describes the AI trajectory as a “smooth exponential” where nothing seems to happen for a long time and then progress suddenly explodes.
    • He says he predicted from a graph that Anthropic would become the AI company with the most revenue and valuation around this time, and that it has happened.
    • Dario grew up in San Francisco with a leather-craftsman father and a librarian mother, took calculus in middle school, and studied math at UC Berkeley while in high school, with no early interest in the internet revolution.
    • Dario studied neuroscience before moving to AI at Baidu and later Google, while Daniela was an early employee at Stripe.
    • Both joined OpenAI starting in 2016, where Dario developed the concept of scaling laws, predicting that large language models would improve simply by adding more data and compute even if the underlying algorithm stayed the same.
    • Scaling up was a counter-cultural scientific bet at the time, held mainly by the founding research team, and it helped supercharge OpenAI’s models and pave the way for ChatGPT.
    • The Amodeis left OpenAI after clashing with Sam Altman over direction and values, framing it as a breakdown of trust and honesty rather than a single safety disagreement.
    • Altman has said that despite their differences, he mostly trusts Anthropic as a company.
    • Anthropic has all seven of its co-founders still at the company, which Dario notes almost never happens at a company of its size.
    • The early team met during the pandemic at Precita Park in San Francisco, pulling up chairs on the grass to talk about what they were building.
    • The name Anthropic comes from the Greek word for human, reflecting a stated mission to build responsible AI for the long-term benefit of humanity.
    • Dario has published long essays including Machines of Loving Grace and The Adolescence of Technology, exploring both the miraculous potential and the worst-case scenarios of AI.
    • Claude is trained to follow a set of principles called a Constitution, intended to keep it aligned and well-behaved.
    • Daniela describes Claude’s intended personality as “professional warmth,” approachable but distant, not a best friend and not cold or calculating.
    • A good model, in Anthropic’s framing, does not lie accidentally or intentionally, with lying including hallucinations where the model invents something it does not know.
    • Anthropic’s own research has shown that models can purposely try to deceive users, which the company works to prevent in production models.
    • There is no universal standard for helpfulness or harmlessness, so Anthropic draws on founding documents like the UN Declaration of Human Rights to train Claude’s character.
    • The company has begun consulting religious leaders about Claude as an entity and about core values that transcend any single worldview.
    • Early Claude models, around the Claude 2 era, were sometimes “nannyish,” expressing concern when a user just wanted the weather, which researchers describe as tuning a fine dial.
    • Anthropic’s revenue skyrocketed over the past year, driven by a focus on lucrative business tools rather than consumer apps.
    • Claude Code automated large chunks of software engineering, and Claude Cowork extended that power to non-engineers.
    • Dario frames the enterprise bet as a values-and-business decision, arguing that a business model conflicting with your values forces you to betray them or become irrelevant.
    • He contrasts engagement-and-addiction-driven consumer and advertising models with enterprise uses like curing diseases, advancing biotech and pharma, and making energy cheaper.
    • Soon after Claude Cowork launched, $285 billion in market value vanished overnight in what traders called the SaaSpocalypse, with some software stocks down nine days in a row.
    • Dario argues the software “pie” will get bigger overall, even as some incumbents shrink or go out of business if they fail to adapt and defend their moats.
    • Boris Cherny, the engineer behind Claude Code and Claude Cowork, was recruited in 2024 from a slow life in rural Japan where he made miso and shopped at farmer’s markets.
    • Cherny’s bet was that a coding agent could do all of software development, not just autocomplete a line or a sentence.
    • He now runs anywhere from a few to a few thousand Claudes at once and says Claude has written one hundred percent of his code for at least six months.
    • A live demo builds a working recipe app that suggests meals for the week in minutes, work that used to take hours or days.
    • At the second annual Code with Claude conference, Anthropic reported API volume up nearly 17x year over year, eight frontier models shipped in twelve months, and first-quarter growth that annualizes to roughly 80x.
    • Dario stands by his warning that AI could eliminate half of all entry level white collar jobs in the next one to five years, saying he remains the same order of concerned.
    • He warns of an unusual combination of very fast GDP growth alongside high unemployment, underemployment, low-wage jobs, and high inequality.
    • Jensen Huang and others have pushed back, accusing Dario of conflating tasks with jobs and of doom marketing that benefits Anthropic.
    • Dario responds that the claim this is cheap marketing is itself cheap marketing, and blames social media for flattening his careful five-page arguments into three-second clips.
    • Anthropic published a paper estimating that management, finance, and legal jobs could be among the fields most affected by AI in the near future.
    • Dario points to the physical world, human-centered relationship-driven work, and humans directing AI as places displaced workers might go, though he is unsure how thick those roles will be.
    • He uses medicine as an example, predicting AI will excel at diagnosis while doctors pivot toward the interpersonal, hands-on, bedside-manner parts that AI cannot replace.
    • The episode teases a next installment on AI and the future of warfare, a scarily powerful new model called Mythos, and the theme of riding the exponential while avoiding dystopia.
    • Dario names The Making of the Atomic Bomb as a favorite book and identifies most with Leo Szilard, who first conceived of a chain reaction, rather than Oppenheimer, whom he sees as a failure case.
    • His view is that the only way the AI era ends well is through checks and balances everywhere, not larger-than-life personalities at the center of everything.

    Detailed Summary

    An unlikely AI celebrity and a sibling-run juggernaut

    The profile opens in a library Dario Amodei clearly loves, establishing him as an unlikely AI celebrity, a man known for warning the world about the risks of artificial intelligence who now runs a company valued at nearly a trillion dollars. Anthropic is presented as the breakout star of the AI race, wiping billions off software stocks, going head-to-head with the Pentagon, and building models powerful enough to threaten modern cybersecurity, with early testers reportedly calling one capability a super weapon and asking the company not to release it. Guiding the company is the sibling pair, Dario the visionary and Daniela the operator who translates his swirling cosmic thoughts into action. Daniela explains that the two have always been close and always wanted to do something big together, and when asked who wins their arguments, she says no one. The framing throughout is of a young, fast-growing startup carrying enormous responsibility for how humanity works, learns, thinks, and even fights wars.

    The smooth exponential and the road from OpenAI

    Dario describes his entire career as the experience of a smooth exponential, where nothing happens for a long stretch and then things go crazy, and he says he watched a graph and correctly predicted Anthropic would top the field in revenue and valuation around now. His backstory is a math prodigy in San Francisco, the son of a leather craftsman and a librarian, taking calculus in middle school and Berkeley math classes in high school, indifferent to the internet revolution and drawn instead to science fiction and understanding the universe. Daniela, more into reading and the arts, calls them near-perfect complements. Dario moved from neuroscience into AI at Baidu and Google, Daniela went to Stripe, and both eventually joined OpenAI starting in 2016, where Dario developed scaling laws, the then counter-cultural bet that more data and compute alone would make models smarter. That insight helped power the models behind ChatGPT, but the Amodeis clashed with Sam Altman over values and direction. Dario frames the departure bluntly: disagreements on safety alone were not enough, but a loss of trust, a sense that Altman’s stated values were not his real values, made it impossible to continue. The resolution, he says, was simply to go off and do their own thing.

    Precita Park, the Constitution, and teaching Claude to be good

    Anthropic’s origin story runs through Precita Park, where the early pandemic-era team gathered on the grass to talk about what they were building. Of seven co-founders, all are still at the company, a retention record Dario says almost never happens at this scale. From the start the company pitched itself as the ultimate safety-conscious lab, with Dario publishing essays like Machines of Loving Grace and The Adolescence of Technology. Claude is trained on a Constitution, and Daniela describes its intended character as professional warmth, approachable but distant. Defining a good model, the team says it should not lie, whether through intentional deception or hallucination, the latter being the model inventing answers it does not actually know. Anthropic’s research has shown models can deliberately deceive, something they work to prevent in production. Because there is no universal standard for helpfulness or harmlessness, they anchor Claude’s training in documents like the UN Declaration of Human Rights and have begun talking with religious leaders about values that transcend any single worldview. Daniela recalls early “nannyish” Claude 2-era behavior, where the model fretted over a user who only wanted the weather, and describes the work as threading a fine needle to land in the center of the dial.

    The enterprise bet, Claude Code, and the SaaSpocalypse

    Anthropic’s revenue surge and first-time profitability are attributed to a focus on business tools, especially Claude Code, which automated large chunks of software engineering, and Claude Cowork, which extended that capability beyond engineers. Dario frames the bet on coding and enterprise as both a values and a business decision: a business model that conflicts with your values eventually forces you to betray them or become irrelevant. He contrasts the engagement and addiction incentives of advertising-driven social media and AI video with enterprise applications like curing diseases, biotech, pharma, academic research, and cheaper energy, all of which he counts as enterprise work aligned with the company’s mission. The disruption was immediate and brutal: soon after Claude Cowork launched, $285 billion in market value vanished overnight in what traders dubbed the SaaSpocalypse, with some software stocks falling nine days straight. Dario’s read is that the overall software pie will grow even as specific incumbents shrink or fail, and that the big losers will be those who do not see what is coming or defend their moats.

    Boris Cherny, jet packs, and Code with Claude

    Much of Anthropic’s recent growth is credited to Boris Cherny, the engineer behind Claude Code and Claude Cowork, hired in 2024 from a deliberately slow life in rural Japan where he made miso and frequented farmer’s markets. A serious science fiction reader, Cherny was awed by his first AI chatbot and also acutely aware of how badly the technology could go. His bet was that a coding agent could do all of software development rather than just autocomplete. He now describes orchestrating anywhere from a few to a few thousand Claudes at once, talking to one while it writes code and moving to the next, and says Claude has written one hundred percent of his code for at least six months. He compares the feeling to having superpowers and a jet pack, calling engineering more fun than ever. A live demo has Claude build a working weekly-meal recipe app in minutes. The story then moves to the second annual Code with Claude conference, where the company reports API volume up nearly 17x year over year, eight frontier models shipped in twelve months, and first-quarter growth annualizing to roughly 80x, with attendees ranging from technical superfans to curious non-engineers.

    Jobs, the tasks-versus-jobs fight, and a more human medicine

    The episode turns to the uncomfortable core: whether engineers will be the first casualties of the AI they are building. Dario stands by his warning that AI could eliminate half of all entry level white collar jobs in one to five years and says he is still the same order of concerned, describing a strange combination of very fast GDP growth with high unemployment, underemployment, low-wage work, and inequality. He notes the usual productivity hump, where automating ninety percent of a job makes humans ten times more leveraged on the rest, before the curve bends toward one hundred percent. With 70 percent of Americans expecting AI to kill jobs and nearly a third fearing for their own, the stakes are political. Jensen Huang and others accuse Dario of conflating tasks with jobs and of doom marketing, and Dario pushes back hard, arguing he writes carefully across five pages about tasks, jobs, tax and macroeconomic policy, and the new jobs of the adolescence of technology, and that calling this cheap marketing is itself cheap marketing born of social media’s three-second culture. Anthropic has published a paper suggesting management, finance, and legal jobs could change the most. Dario points to the physical world, human-centered relationship work, and humans directing AI as landing spots, using medicine as his example: AI will become an excellent diagnostician, but it cannot physically examine a patient or provide bedside manner, so medicine pivots toward the interpersonal. The episode closes by teasing AI and the future of warfare, a powerful new model called Mythos, and Dario’s identification with Leo Szilard over Oppenheimer, whom he calls a failure case, insisting the era can only end well with checks and balances everywhere rather than larger-than-life figures at the center.

    Notable Quotes

    “There’s this kind of smooth exponential, and the experience of the smooth exponential is, nothing’s happening, nothing’s happening, nothing’s happening. Little things happen, and then zoom, it goes crazy.”

    Dario Amodei, on how AI progress actually feels from the inside

    “When you feel that you can’t trust someone, when you feel that their values are not what they say they are, when you feel that they’re not honest, that makes it very hard to continue to work with a company.”

    Dario Amodei, on why he and Daniela left OpenAI

    “Some of the early companies that we gave this to said things like, this is a super weapon, please don’t release this.”

    Anthropic, on early reactions to one of its more powerful models

    “I like to describe it as professional warmth. So the goal is not for it to be your best friend, but it’s not for it to be sort of cold, rote, calculating.”

    Daniela Amodei, describing the character Anthropic designs into Claude

    “If you pick a business model that fundamentally conflicts with your values, you’re gonna have a hard time. Either you betray your own values or you become irrelevant.”

    Dario Amodei, on why Anthropic bet on enterprise and coding

    “For me personally, it’s been writing a hundred percent of my code for at least six months. The work of engineering has just completely changed.”

    Boris Cherny, the engineer behind Claude Code and Claude Cowork

    “I feel like I suddenly have superpowers. I have like a jet pack and the engineering has never been this fun.”

    Boris Cherny, on building software with Claude Code

    “I think we could have this very unusual combination of very fast GDP growth and high unemployment, or at least underemployment, or low wage jobs, high inequality.”

    Dario Amodei, on the economic shock he is most worried about

    “The idea that this is cheap marketing is itself cheap marketing. I think it’s part of the disease of Silicon Valley.”

    Dario Amodei, responding to the doom-marketing accusation

    “The figure I most identified with was Leo Szilard, who was the one who first had the idea that there could be a chain reaction.”

    Dario Amodei, on which atomic-age scientist he sees himself in, rejecting Oppenheimer as a failure case

    Watch the full episode of The Circuit inside Anthropic here.

    Related Reading

    • Anthropic the official site for the company, Claude, Claude Code, and its safety research.
    • Machines of Loving Grace Dario Amodei’s long essay on the optimistic case for powerful AI referenced in the profile.
    • Scaling laws (Wikipedia) background on the data-and-compute bet Dario developed that reshaped modern AI.
    • Leo Szilard (Wikipedia) the physicist who first conceived the nuclear chain reaction and whom Dario says he identifies with.
    • Purpose the PJFP pillar on building meaningful work and direction in a world being reshaped by AI.

  • Whale Rock Capital Founder Alex Sacerdote on S-Curve Investing, Why Anthropic Is His Highest Conviction Bet, and the Decommoditization of AI Hardware

    Alex Sacerdote built Whale Rock Capital into one of the most respected technology hedge funds in the world by treating markets through a single disciplined lens: the technology adoption S-curve. In this long conversation on Invest Like the Best with Patrick O’Shaughnessy, he lays out the full framework that has carried him through internet 1.0, mobile, cloud, e-commerce, and now AI, and he explains why Anthropic became his highest conviction position, why his fund went net short application software, and why the least glamorous corner of the market, the hardware and chips that build out data centers, may be one of the best ways to play artificial intelligence right now. What follows is the working theory of a money manager who has spent twenty years trying to think exponentially while the rest of the market thinks one quarter at a time.

    TLDW

    Sacerdote walks through Whale Rock’s three-part investment framework: find the right part of an S-curve, identify the company with a durable competitive advantage, and buy when long-term earnings power is underappreciated. He tells the story of investing in Anthropic at a 180 billion dollar valuation in August 2025 after Claude Code made coding the true unlock of AI, and frames the foundational model market as a three-horse race between Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google that resolved from sixty startups into an oligopoly. He argues enterprise AI is less than 1 percent penetrated, calls the adoption shape an L curve rather than an S-curve, and warns there is not enough compute in the world. He explains why he sold almost all of his application software and went net short, why he loves the decommoditization of AI hardware (Celestica, Corning, Elite Materials, Delta, Advanced Energy, high bandwidth memory, 40-layer PCBs), introduces a modified rule of 40 for chip investing, surveys the moats that let leaders win (network effects, industry standard, scale, critical IP, brand, recursive self-improvement), discusses moving from public markets into private deals like Stripe and Anthropic, lays out Whale Rock’s fund products including the new Mega Cap Tech Fund, defends old-fashioned scuttlebutt research in an AI age, and closes on the kindest thing anyone ever did for him, his father joining the firm after 41 years at Goldman Sachs.

    Thoughts

    The most useful idea in this conversation is not the bullishness on AI, which is everywhere now, but the discipline underneath it. Sacerdote’s framework forces a separation that most investors collapse. A great market is not a great investment. A great company is not a great investment. You need a tall S-curve, a company with a moat that survives the curve, and a price that does not yet reflect the earnings power. He says the quiet part out loud: he has repeatedly bought the best companies in the world at four or five times earnings precisely because the market refuses to extrapolate exponential growth. Nvidia at four times earnings in 2023, Tesla at five times in 2019, Amazon where AWS came free. The edge is not information, it is the willingness to underwrite two to four years out when the consensus cannot see past the next quarter.

    The Anthropic story is the framework applied in real time, and it is worth noting how late and how cautious he was. Whale Rock passed on the 60 billion dollar round because gross margins were negative and coding had not yet exploded. They only got conviction once Claude Code flipped from autocomplete to agentic work, once they heard Anthropic engineers were burning 100 dollars a day in tokens, and once the math on twenty million coders implied a half trillion dollar market from coding alone. The lesson he repeats throughout, that it is okay to be late, that you can miss the first 100 percent if the curve is tall enough, is a direct rebuke to the fear of missing out that drives most AI investing. He waited for the moat to be visible before he paid up.

    His most contrarian and most actionable call is on hardware. The consensus reflex is that chips and components are commodities that get competed to zero. Sacerdote argues the opposite is happening: AI workloads growing 10x a year are pushing every layer of the server to its physical limits, and that pressure is decommoditizing the entire stack. A liquid-cooled AI server is a 300,000 dollar piece of critical infrastructure, not a 5,000 dollar throwaway box, which means the supplier becomes a permanent fixture like a parts vendor on a plane. The Celestica example is the template: a contract manufacturer left for dead since 1999 that turned out to be the sole supplier of Google’s TPU server and a leader in liquid cooling and Ethernet switching, trading at eight times earnings. If he is right that we are 30 percent short on DRAM, NAND, and PCBs, the picks-and-shovels trade has years left to run regardless of which model company wins.

    The software bear case deserves the most scrutiny because it is the most consequential and the least certain. Going from 40 to 50 percent of the portfolio in software to net short is a violent reallocation, and his reasons are layered: AI products that nobody will pay for, CIO budgets being raided to fund Anthropic tokens, pricing power evaporating, and the long-term threat that AI-native startups rebuild incumbents from scratch. But he is honest that the bull case is real too, that old technology is sticky, that companies prefer to buy rather than build, and that AI might actually make platforms like Slack or CRM more important if agents end up operating inside them. This is the genuine uncertainty in the whole AI trade. The bottom of Jensen’s cake, chips and models, is where the value has accrued so far, but historically the application layer captured most of the market cap. Sacerdote is betting that this time the infrastructure and model layers hold the value longer, and he admits the application ecosystem is still unclear and a little bit dangerous. That admission is more valuable than any of his confident calls.

    Finally, the section on research in an AI age is a quiet refutation of the idea that this work automates away. Sacerdote runs a Philip Fisher scuttlebutt operation, 2,500 to 3,000 face-to-face management meetings a year, two decades of compounding relationships, the tripod of conviction where he, his analyst, and a respected outsider all independently like an idea. AI writes better notes now, but the paragraph on top, the wisdom about what it means and how it fits the thesis, is still human. The durable moat in his own business is the same one he looks for in the companies he buys: an accumulated advantage that newcomers cannot replicate quickly. That consistency between how he invests and how he operates is the most credible thing in the interview.

    Key Takeaways

    • Whale Rock’s framework has three legs: identify the right part of a technology S-curve, find the company with a powerful competitive advantage, and invest when long-term earnings power is underappreciated.
    • The core insight is exponential, not linear. Strong tech business models grow earnings exponentially, and because the market refuses to extrapolate, you can buy elite companies at very low multiples.
    • Concrete examples of buying exponential growth cheaply: Nvidia at four times earnings in 2023, Tesla at five times in 2019, Apple at four times, and Amazon where AWS was effectively free.
    • When ChatGPT launched in November 2022, Whale Rock did a firm-wide deep dive and chose to invest in chips and infrastructure first, because demand arrives there first and the winners are knowable regardless of who wins the model layer.
    • The foundational model market went from roughly 60 startups to a three-horse race: Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google. Most startups died, Amazon never showed up, and Meta faltered and had to reboot.
    • Anthropic was the dark horse that focused purely on enterprise while OpenAI won consumer. Whale Rock made it their highest conviction position.
    • Coding is the true unlock of AI. The progression went from Microsoft Copilot at 20 dollars a month (fixing grammar, finding a bug) to Claude running agentically and writing most of the code.
    • The market math: Anthropic engineers were reportedly spending 100 dollars a day on tokens, roughly 20 to 30 thousand dollars a year, and with about 20 million coders in the world that implies a half trillion dollar market from coding alone.
    • Whale Rock invested in Anthropic at the 180 billion dollar valuation in August 2025, when the company hoped to reach 9 billion in revenue and nobody yet knew what 2026 could be.
    • Andrej Karpathy and Linus Torvalds both flipped on AI coding. Karpathy went from 80 percent handwritten code to writing almost no code except in English.
    • Models are not pure commodities. There is real differentiation: Anthropic is strong for private equity and finance, Google is strong at ingesting PDFs, and routers that switch between models mask but do not erase that differentiation.
    • Anthropic is building an ecosystem around the API (SDK, orchestration, the harness, tools), echoing how AWS built lock-in with products around commodity servers starting in 2013.
    • The 800 million people using AI are mostly using AI 1.0, a search engine on steroids. Sundar Pichai estimated only about 10 basis points of knowledge workers are truly using AI’s new capabilities.
    • Enterprise AI is less than 1 percent penetrated. Whale Rock calls the adoption shape an L curve or backwards L curve because it goes straight up, unlike the slower 30 to 50 percent growth of cloud and SaaS.
    • There is not enough compute in the world. Anthropic reportedly has half of what it needs, and Marc Andreessen said the one thing he is sure of is that there will not be enough compute for the next four years.
    • The infrastructure S-curve is only about 10 percent penetrated and remains one of the best ways to play AI.
    • Getting into private deals requires a double opt-in. Whale Rock did a 90-page deck (built with Claude Code) on the coding market to win their Anthropic allocation, and their first private was Stripe in 2020 at a 35 billion dollar valuation.
    • The unicorn private market is now bigger than most European stock markets, larger than Germany or the UK individually. Whale Rock does 2,500 to 3,000 management meetings a year, 10 to 15 percent with privates.
    • S-curves come in two sizes: mega S-curves (internet, mobile, cloud, e-commerce, AI) and sub S-curves within them. AI is the biggest of all and each curve builds on the last.
    • Adoption inflects when barriers fall. Steve Jobs cut the smartphone price to 200 dollars on a 3G touchscreen, Elon cut the EV price to 40,000 with 300-mile range and a working supply chain. Remove the barriers and you get the tornado of demand.
    • Knowing how tall the curve is tells you when to sell. Growth stops being exponential around 30 to 40 percent penetration, when the sell side catches up and big beats end. EVs hit a wall at 10 to 15 percent instead of the expected 40 to 50 percent.
    • Selling Apple in 2012 at roughly 50 percent US smartphone penetration was a mistake, because the moat let it keep compounding around 20 percent even after the explosive phase ended.
    • At strategic inflection points you cannot trust the data (Andy Grove). The signal is intuition and anecdote: a 12-year-old in China on a giant phone playing a real game, or standing-room-only sessions at the Gartner IT Symposium for AWS, VMware, and Splunk.
    • Adoption slope varies. The radio curve hit near-full penetration in about 7 years, while B2B and infrastructure (the dishwasher that has to be plugged in) take far longer. AI is fast because you just open a browser.
    • The moats that let leaders win: network effects, becoming an industry standard, rapid scale, critical intellectual property, brand, and platform lock-in. Anthropic appears to have critical IP, enterprise brand, escape velocity, and recursive self-improvement from using its own code on its own models.
    • On the internet, the leader usually goes bigger, faster, and wins, and compounds on itself (Amazon, Shopify). Exceptions come at paradigm shifts, like AOL failing to make the dialup-to-broadband transition.
    • Whale Rock went from 40 to 50 percent in software five years ago to net short entering this year, which helped performance in the first quarter. AI products were not good enough to charge for and were not moving the needle.
    • Software faces a stack of headaches: falling priority on CIO to-do lists, budget pressure from token spend, lost pricing power, hiring freezes that hurt seat-based models, and the long-term threat of AI-native replacements.
    • The classic rule of 40 is growth rate plus operating margin. Whale Rock’s modified rule of 40 for chip investing is percent of sales that are AI plus market share in that category. Software AI exposure is still only 1 to 2 percent.
    • AI may make some platforms more important. The first thing you do with Claude is plug it into Slack, which could make Slack a permanent repository, and agents may end up operating inside incumbent tools like CRM, solidifying rather than killing them.
    • The data center stood still for 40 years on Intel x86, with every component commoditized. AI changed that. Workloads growing 10x a year are driving the decommoditization of the hardware industry.
    • Celestica is the template: a contract manufacturer left for dead since 1999, sole supplier of the Google TPU server, strong in liquid cooling and Ethernet white-box switching, with 50 to 60 percent share of the cloud Ethernet switch market, once trading at eight times earnings.
    • The whole supply chain is rerating: high bandwidth memory stacked 10 chips high, 40-layer PCBs (versus 10 for a normal server), Elite Materials copper clad laminate, Corning fiber (enough to circle the world four and a half times in one Microsoft data center), and Delta and Advanced Energy power supplies seeing ASPs rise 40 percent a year.
    • Networking has three layers: scale out (racks together), scale across (data centers together), and scale up (every GPU in a rack, currently copper, eventually fiber). The copper-to-fiber shift could two-to-three-x Corning’s opportunity.
    • Whale Rock estimates the market is roughly 30 percent short on DRAM, NAND, and PCBs even at today’s 10 basis points of real AI usage.
    • Rate of change matters more than absolute level. When Claude plotted market share data it missed the rate of change, the thing that drives accelerating growth and margins as a company moves from 10 to 30 percent share.
    • Key risks: public and government negativity toward AI (Maine reportedly banned data centers, only 20 percent of people are optimistic), models hitting a wall and letting open source catch up into a race to the bottom, and a major player faltering and stranding compute.
    • Chip companies do not care who wins the token war, which makes them a relatively safe way to play AI. Jensen Huang actively wants open source to take off.
    • Research is still human work. Whale Rock runs a Philip Fisher scuttlebutt process, the tripod of conviction (Alex, the analyst, and a respected outsider), and 20 years of compounding knowledge. AI writes better notes but cannot supply the wisdom paragraph on top or pick stocks.
    • The firm’s product evolution: 15 years as a long short fund, a long only fund in 2020 that is now larger than the long short, opt-in privates formalized around 2015 and activated in 2020, an 80 percent privates hybrid fund in 2021, and the new Whale Rock Mega Cap Tech Fund.
    • The Mega Cap Tech Fund thesis: endowments are structurally underweight the largest tech companies because they believe there is no alpha in large cap. Whale Rock takes the top 30 global market caps and picks the best 12 or 13, arguing it takes 100 diversified PMs to realize Google is a winner.
    • The kindest thing anyone ever did for Sacerdote: his father, after 41 years at Goldman Sachs, joined Whale Rock as chairman and the gray hair for six years until he passed away in 2011.

    Detailed Summary

    The Anthropic Investment and the Three-Horse Race

    When ChatGPT launched in November 2022, Whale Rock immediately took its 10-person team and ran a firm-wide deep dive. Sacerdote’s first principle is that every new compute paradigm creates a new stack with new winners and losers, and in this stack the layers run from power and chips at the bottom, to the clouds, to the foundational models, to the applications on top. In early 2023 the firm deliberately positioned in chips and infrastructure first, reasoning that demand arrives there first and the winners are knowable no matter who wins above. At an April 2023 webinar they framed the model layer as a coin flip between winner-take-all, total commodity, a race to zero, or an oligopoly of three or four. Over the next three years the answer became clear: of roughly 60 startups, almost all died, Amazon never really showed up, Meta came in strong then faltered and rebooted, and Anthropic emerged as the dark horse focused purely on enterprise while OpenAI won consumer and Google remained a perennial threat. The result looked like the cloud market, where three companies underpin the entire SaaS world with excellent businesses.

    The decisive factor was code. Sacerdote says the firm was initially skeptical AI could replace labor, given the negative corporate feedback on early models. That changed in 2025 when Claude Code and the agentic coding tools exploded. The progression ran from Microsoft Copilot at 20 dollars a month, which could improve coding grammar or find a bug, to Claude running agentically and doing far more. The token economics were staggering: Anthropic engineers reportedly spending 100 dollars a day, which annualizes to 20 to 30 thousand dollars, and with 20 million coders worldwide that implied a half trillion dollar market from coding alone, on technology that was only 7 to 9 months old. Whale Rock made the investment at the 180 billion dollar valuation in August 2025, writing in their letter that the company hoped to reach 9 billion in revenue, with growth like nothing they had ever seen, 100 million to a billion on the way to 9 billion, and no one yet knowing what 2026 could bring.

    Why the Models Are Not Commodities

    Everyone expected the foundational models to be pure commodities, but Sacerdote argues there is tremendous differentiation within them. Different training methods produce different skills: Anthropic excels at anything touching private equity and finance, Google is strong at ingesting PDFs. Routers that switch between models make them look like commodities but mask genuine, critical IP. Beyond the model itself, Anthropic is building a whole ecosystem around the API: the SDK, the orchestration layer, the tools, and the harness, the software wrapped around the API that gets the most out of the model. He compares this directly to AWS in 2013, when people dismissed cloud as commodity servers in a warehouse and missed that Amazon was inventing products that slowly built lock-in. The open-source risk from China is real, but Sacerdote got comfortable that leading-edge token quality is superior, because going from 80 to 85 percent of benchmark performance is a huge unlock and the open-source players lack the compute to leapfrog the frontier.

    The S-Curve Framework in Full

    Whale Rock’s whole edge is thinking exponentially when the world thinks linearly. Sacerdote argues very few people believe you can accurately predict two, three, or four years out, but if you understand the S-curve, the moats, and how to model, you can. Every technology follows the same pattern: it exists hidden for years (smartphones 10 years before the iPhone, the internet 20 years before Netscape, EVs 15 years before Tesla went vertical in 2019) until the barriers to adoption fall and demand inflects into a tornado. Knowing how tall the curve is tells you when to sell, because exponential growth stops around 30 to 40 percent penetration when the sell side catches up. Curves can also be dynamic: AWS turned out to address a far larger TAM than expected once it became clear cloud was not actually deflationary. There are mega S-curves (internet, mobile, cloud, e-commerce, AI) and sub S-curves within them. AI is the biggest. And slope varies enormously by the nature of the technology, the radio curve hitting full penetration in 7 years, B2B and infrastructure taking decades because, like a dishwasher, they have to be plugged into existing systems.

    On timing, Sacerdote is relaxed about being late. Citing Peter Lynch, who mentored him at Fidelity and told him to white out the chart because it is all about the future, he argues it is fine to miss the first one, two, or three years and even the first 100 percent if the top of the curve is half a trillion. At strategic inflection points, per Andy Grove, you cannot trust the data, so the firm relies on intuition and anecdote: a 12-year-old in China playing a real video game on a huge phone, or the AWS session at the Gartner IT Symposium that was standing-room-only at 9, 10, and 11 in the morning. Spotting the leader pulling away matters because, on the internet, the leader usually goes bigger, faster, and wins, compounding on itself, with exceptions only at paradigm shifts like AOL missing the move from dialup to broadband.

    The Software Bear Case

    Five years ago Whale Rock had 40 to 50 percent of its portfolio in software. Their April 2023 thesis was that incumbents with huge sales forces and proprietary data would take the AI APIs and build great products. Instead, the AI products were not good enough to charge for and did not move the needle, so the firm sold almost all of its application software and entered this year net short, which helped in the first quarter. The bear case is layered: software has fallen down the CIO priority list, budgets are being raided to fund Anthropic tokens with faster ROI, annual price increases look risky, and hiring freezes hurt seat-based models. The deeper threat is that AI-native startups could rebuild any incumbent from scratch, obviating the data advantage. The bull case is genuine too: old tech is sticky (mobile games did not kill consoles, tablets did not kill the PC), companies prefer to buy rather than build, and an ERP is hard to replace. Sacerdote also floats an optimistic twist, that AI could make platforms like Slack more important as agent repositories, and that agents operating inside CRM could solidify rather than destroy it, even as the bear case is that CRM goes headless and gets relegated to a database.

    The Decommoditization of AI Hardware

    This is Sacerdote’s most differentiated call. For 40 years nothing changed in the data center; Intel x86 became the standard, compute grew 25 to 40 percent a year in line with Moore’s law, and every component, from the printed circuit board to memory to enclosures to networking, commoditized. AI broke that. Workloads now grow 10x a year and push every aspect of the hardware to its physical limits, creating both tremendous unit growth and what Whale Rock calls the decommoditization of the hardware industry. He cites Sean Maguire wishing he could run a hardware hedge fund because all the companies are public with powerful IP, and compares it to Sequoia’s best early hardware investments in Apple and Cisco. The economics flip because an AI server is a liquid-cooled, 200 to 300 thousand dollar piece of critical infrastructure where a single failure brings the whole thing down, so suppliers become permanent like a critical part on a plane.

    Celestica is the marquee example: a contract manufacturer that had been a disaster industry since 1999 and went offshore to China, but kept its IBM supercomputing heritage and talent, became the sole supplier of the Google TPU server, and was trading at eight times earnings three years ago. It turned out to be excellent at liquid cooling where others failed, holds 50 to 60 percent share of the crucial cloud Ethernet switch market, and its engineers helped write the open-source SONiC software, working closely with Broadcom. The same dynamic runs up and down the chain: high bandwidth memory stacked 10 chips high that took Samsung years to master, 40-layer PCBs versus 10 for a normal server with very few suppliers able to make them, Elite Materials supplying the copper clad laminate, and Corning’s fiber, thinner and more bendable, with enough in a single Microsoft data center to circle the world four and a half times. Networking splits into scale out, scale across, and scale up, with the eventual copper-to-fiber shift in scale up potentially two-to-three-x-ing Corning’s opportunity. Power supplies from Delta and Advanced Energy are seeing ASPs rise 40 percent a year at higher margins because each Nvidia rack uses 50 to 125 percent more power. Visibility has gone from we’ll call you next week to design this roadmap with us for four years, turning 5 percent low-margin businesses into 35 to 50 percent topline growers with rising margins, and the whole market is roughly 30 percent short on DRAM, NAND, and PCBs.

    Private Markets, Risks, and the Research Machine

    Moving from public markets into privates meant adapting to a double opt-in, where the company has to choose to let you in. Whale Rock won its Anthropic allocation partly by building a 90-page deck with Claude Code scouring the internet for feedback on the coding market. Their first private was Stripe in April 2020 at a 35 billion dollar valuation, which they could only underwrite because they knew the public comp Adyen cold, and they upsized to a 100 million dollar block. The unicorn market is now bigger than most European stock markets combined. On risk, Sacerdote worries about public and government negativity (Maine reportedly banning data centers, only 20 percent of people optimistic), the possibility that models hit a wall and open source catches up into a race to the bottom, and a major player faltering and stranding compute, though he notes someone else (like Meta stepping into a cancelled Oracle deal) would likely absorb it, and that chip companies benefit regardless of who wins the token war. He explains his caution on the application layer by noting it always comes later, the iPhone took years to spawn its app economy, and the ecosystem is still unclear and a little dangerous, while pointing to Brett Taylor’s Sierra as the kind of company that could prove it out.

    On the research itself, Sacerdote insists AI has not supplanted the analyst. Whale Rock runs the scuttlebutt approach straight out of Philip Fisher’s Common Stocks and Uncommon Profits, doing 2,500 to 3,000 face-to-face management meetings a year and talking to suppliers, customers, and competitors. AI now writes much better notes and gets the team up to speed quickly on complex areas like ABF substrates, but there must be a wisdom paragraph on top, and it cannot pick stocks or replicate the work two analysts did building conviction in AppLovin and a relationship with Adam Foroughi. He calls the firm the Whale Rock learning machine, a group of 10 highly experienced people compounding knowledge for 20 years, with the tripod of conviction (himself, his analyst, and a respected outside investor all liking an idea) as the test. The firm’s products evolved from a 15-year long short fund to a 2020 long only fund now larger than the original, opt-in privates, an 80 percent privates hybrid in 2021, and the new Mega Cap Tech Fund built on the thesis that endowments are structurally underweight the largest tech companies because they wrongly believe large cap has no alpha. He closes on his father, who left Goldman after 41 years to join Whale Rock as chairman and the gray hair until his death in 2011, a mentor remembered by countless people for his humility and grace.

    Notable Quotes

    “When you get the right part of the S-curve, you get exponential unit growth. If you have a very strong business model, your earnings don’t grow linearly, they grow exponentially.”

    Alex Sacerdote, stating the core of the Whale Rock investment framework

    “The world doesn’t think exponentially. Very few people believe you can accurately predict two, three, four years out. But if you follow and understand the S-curve and you know the moats and you know how to model, you really can predict these great things.”

    Alex Sacerdote, on why the market consistently underprices long-term earnings power

    “The enterprise AI or enterprise application AI market is less than 1 percent penetrated, and we’ve never seen, you know, we talk about S-curves, we call this an L curve, just straight up.”

    Alex Sacerdote, on why AI adoption looks different from every prior technology curve

    “We’re at 10 basis points of people really using AI and we’re already sold out. There’s not enough compute in the world. So Anthropic has half of what they need right now, and that’s before this huge takeup.”

    Alex Sacerdote, on the scale of the compute shortage relative to actual adoption

    “It’s okay to be late. It’s okay to miss the first one, two, three years in a lot of cases, because if the top of the S-curve is half a trillion, the growth can go on for a long time. It’s okay to miss the first 100 percent.”

    Alex Sacerdote, on why fear of missing out is the wrong instinct in a tall S-curve

    “The old way of software is like using a pen and paper or a horse and buggy. The new way of software is like a jet engine or frankly like the transporter from Star Trek. It’s so revolutionary it feels like it has to be disruptive.”

    Alex Sacerdote, explaining why Whale Rock went net short application software

    “You become like critical infrastructure, like selling a critical part on a plane. You’ll never get swapped out.”

    Alex Sacerdote, on how liquid-cooled AI servers turned commodity hardware suppliers into permanent fixtures

    “Why do you tell everyone your secret? It’s like why does the casino teach people how to play blackjack? It’s harder. It’s really hard to do.”

    Alex Sacerdote, quoting his mother on why a public framework does not erase the edge

    “He said, you know, I’ve been at Goldman for 41 years. How about I come and join you? I’ll be the gray hair. I’ll be the oversight. I’ll be the chairman. You do what you do.”

    Alex Sacerdote, recalling his father joining Whale Rock, the kindest thing anyone ever did for him

    Watch the full conversation here: Whale Rock Capital Founder on Investing in the Age of Exponential AI.

    Related Reading

  • Alex Wang on Leaving Scale to Run Meta Superintelligence Labs, MuseSpark, Personal Super Intelligence, and Building an Economy of Agents

    Alex Wang, head of Meta Superintelligence Labs, sits down with Ashley Vance and Kylie Robinson on the Core Memory podcast for his first long-form interview since Meta’s quasi-acquisition of Scale AI roughly ten months ago. He walks through how MSL is structured, why Llama was off-trajectory, what made MuseSpark’s token efficiency surprise the team, how Meta thinks about a future “economy of agents in a data center,” and where he lands on safety, open source, robotics, brain computer interfaces, and even model welfare.

    TLDW

    Wang explains that Meta Superintelligence Labs is a fully rebuilt frontier effort organized around four principles (take superintelligence seriously, technical voices loudest, scientific rigor, big bets) and three velocity levers (high compute per researcher, extreme talent density, ambitious research bets). He confirms Llama was off the frontier when he arrived, so MSL rebuilt the pre-training, reinforcement learning, and data stacks from scratch. MuseSpark is described as the “appetizer” on the scaling ladder, notable for its strong token efficiency, with much larger and stronger models coming in the coming months. He pushes back on the mercenary narrative around recruiting, frames Meta’s edge as compute plus billions of consumers and hundreds of millions of small businesses, sketches a vision of personal super intelligence delivered through Ray-Ban Meta glasses and WhatsApp, and outlines why physical intelligence, robotics (the new Assured Robot Intelligence acquisition), health super intelligence with CZI, brain computer interfaces, and even model welfare are core to Meta’s roadmap. He dismisses reported infighting with Bosworth and Cox as gossip, declines to comment on the Manus situation, and says safety guardrails (bio, cyber, loss of control) are why MuseSpark cannot currently be open sourced, while smaller open variants are being prepared.

    Key Takeaways

    • Meta Superintelligence Labs (MSL) is the umbrella, with TBD Lab as the large-model research unit reporting directly to Alex Wang, PAR (Product and Applied Research) under Nat Friedman, FAIR for exploratory science, and Meta Compute under Daniel Gross handling long-term GPU and data center planning.
    • Wang says Llama was not on a frontier trajectory when he arrived, so MSL had to do a “full renovation” of the pre-training stack, RL stack, data pipeline, and research science.
    • The first cultural fix was getting the lab to “take superintelligence seriously” as a near-term, achievable goal, not an abstract bet. Big incumbents often lack that religious conviction.
    • Four MSL principles: take superintelligence seriously, let technical voices be loudest, demand scientific rigor on basics, and make big bets.
    • Three velocity levers Wang identified for catching and overtaking the frontier: high compute per researcher, very high talent density in a small team, and willingness to fund ambitious research bets.
    • Wang rejects the mercenary recruiting narrative. He says most hires had strong financial prospects at their prior labs already and joined for compute access, talent density, and the chance to build from scratch.
    • On the famous soup story, Wang neither confirms nor denies Zuck personally made the soup, but says recruiting was highly individualized and signaled how seriously Meta cared about each researcher’s agenda.
    • Yann LeCun publicly called Wang young and inexperienced. Wang says they reconciled in person at a conference in India where LeCun congratulated him on MuseSpark.
    • Sam Altman, asked by Vance for comment, “did not have flattering things to say” about Wang. Wang hopes industry animosities subside as systems approach superintelligence.
    • Wang’s management philosophy borrows the Steve Jobs line: hire brilliant people so they tell you what to do, not the other way around.
    • MuseSpark is framed as an “appetizer” data point on the MSL scaling ladder, not a flagship.
    • The MuseSpark program is built around predictable scaling on multiple axes: pre-training, reinforcement learning, test-time compute, and multi-agent collaboration (the 16-agent content planning mode).
    • MuseSpark outperformed internal expectations and showed emergent capabilities in agentic visual coding, including generating websites and games from prompts, helped by combined agentic and multimodal strength.
    • MuseSpark’s biggest external signal is token efficiency. On benchmarks like Artificial Analysis it hits similar results with far fewer tokens than competitor models, which Wang attributes to a clean stack rebuilt by experts rather than inefficiencies patched by longer thinking.
    • Larger MSL models are arriving in the coming months and Wang expects them to be state of the art in the areas MSL is focused on.
    • The Meta strategic edge: massive compute, billions of consumers across the family of apps, and hundreds of millions of small businesses already on Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp.
    • Wang’s headline framing: Dario Amodei talks about a “country of geniuses in a data center.” Meta is targeting an “economy of agents in a data center,” with consumer agents and business agents transacting and collaborating.
    • Consumer AI sentiment is in the toilet because, unlike developers who have had a Claude Code moment, ordinary people have not yet experienced AI as a genuine personal agency unlock.
    • Wang acknowledges the product overhang. Meta held back from deep AI integration across its apps until the models were good enough, and is now entering the integration phase.
    • Ray-Ban Meta glasses are the canonical example of personal super intelligence hardware, with the model seeing what the user sees, hearing what they hear, capturing context, and surfacing proactive insights.
    • Wang admits even AI-native users like Kylie Robinson, who lives in WhatsApp, have not naturally used Meta AI yet. He bets that better models plus deeper integration close that gap.
    • On the competitive landscape: a year ago everyone assumed ChatGPT had already won consumer. Claude Code has since become the fastest growing business in history, and Gemini has taken consumer market share. Wang’s read: AI is far from endgame and each new capability tier unlocks a new dominant form factor.
    • On open source: MuseSpark triggered guardrails in Meta’s Advanced AI Scaling Framework around bio, chem, cyber, and loss-of-control risks, so it is not currently safe to open source. Smaller, derived open variants are actively in development.
    • Meta remains committed to open sourcing models when safety allows, drawing a line through the Open Compute Project legacy and Sun Microsystems open-software heritage.
    • Wang dismisses reporting about a Wang-Zuck versus Bosworth-Cox split as “the line between gossip and reporting is remarkably thin.” He says leadership is aligned on needing best-in-class models and product integration.
    • On the Manus situation, Wang says it is too complicated to discuss publicly and that the deal status implies “machinations are still at play.”
    • On China, Wang separates the people from the state. He still wants to work with talented Chinese-born researchers regardless of his views on the Chinese Communist Party and PLA, which he sees as taking AI extremely seriously for national security.
    • The full-page New York Times AI war ad Wang ran while at Scale was meant to push the US government to treat AI as a step change for national security. He thinks events since then, including DeepSeek and other shocks, have proved that plea correct.
    • On Anthropic’s doom posture, Wang largely agrees with the core message that models are already very powerful and getting more so, while declining to endorse every specific claim.
    • Meta has acquired Assured Robot Intelligence (ARRI), an AI software company building models for hardware platforms, not a hardware maker itself.
    • Wang frames physical super intelligence as the natural sequel to digital super intelligence. Robotics, world models, and physical intelligence all benefit from the same scaling that drives language models.
    • On health, MSL is building a “health super intelligence” effort and will collaborate closely with CZI. Wang sees equal global access to powerful health AI as a uniquely Meta-shaped delivery problem.
    • Wang admires John Carmack but says nobody really knows what Carmack is currently working on. No band reunion announced.
    • The mango model is “alive and kicking” despite rumors. Wang notes MSL gets a small fraction of the rumor-mill attention other labs get and feels sympathy for them.
    • On model welfare, Wang says it is a serious topic that “nobody is talking about enough” given how integrated models have become as work partners. He references research, including from Eleos, that measures subjective experience of models.
    • Wang’s critical-path technology list: super intelligence, robotics, brain computer interfaces. The infinite-scale primitives behind them are energy, compute, and robots.
    • FAIR’s brain research program Tribe hit a milestone called Tribe B2: a foundation model that can predict how an unknown person’s brain would respond to images, video, and audio with reasonable zero-shot generalization.
    • Wang’s main philosophical break with Elon Musk: research itself is the primary activity. Building super intelligence is a research expedition through fog of war, and sequencing of bets really matters.
    • Personal notes: Wang moved from San Francisco to the South Bay, treats Palo Alto as his city now, was a math olympiad competitor, says his favorite activities are reading sci-fi and walking in the woods, and bonds with Vance over country music.

    Detailed Summary

    How MSL Is Actually Organized

    Meta Superintelligence Labs sits as the umbrella organization that Wang oversees. Inside it, TBD Lab is the large-model research group where the most discussed researchers and infrastructure engineers sit, and they technically report to Wang. PAR, Product and Applied Research, is led by Nat Friedman and owns deployment and product surfaces. FAIR continues to run exploratory science, including work on brain prediction models and a universal model for atoms used in computational chemistry. Sitting alongside MSL is Meta Compute, run by Daniel Gross, which owns the long-horizon GPU and data center plan that everything else relies on. Chief scientist Shengjia Zhao orchestrates the scientific agenda across the whole lab.

    Why Wang Left Scale

    Wang says progress in frontier AI has been faster than even insiders expected. Two structural beliefs pushed him toward Meta. First, the labs that actually train the frontier models are accruing disproportionate economic and product rights in the AI ecosystem. Second, compute is the dominant scarce input of the next phase, so the right mental model is to treat tech companies with compute as fundamentally different animals from companies without it. Meta has both, Zuck is “AGI pilled,” and the personal super intelligence memo Zuck published roughly a year ago became the shared north star.

    The Diagnosis: Llama Was Off-Trajectory

    When Wang arrived, the existing AI org needed a reset because Llama was not on the same trajectory as the frontier. The plan he laid out has four cultural principles. Take superintelligence seriously as a real near-term target. Make technical voices the loudest in the room. Demand scientific rigor and focus on basics. Make big bets. On top of that, three structural levers were used to set velocity. Push compute per researcher much higher than at larger labs where compute is diluted across too many efforts. Keep the team small and extremely cracked. Allocate a meaningful share of resources to ambitious, paradigm-shifting research bets rather than incremental refinement.

    Recruiting, Soup, and the Mercenary Narrative

    Wang argues the reporting on MSL hiring overstated the money story. Most of the people MSL recruited had strong financial paths at their previous employers, so individualized recruiting was more about computing access, talent density, and the ability to make big research bets. The recruitment blitz happened fast because Wang knew the team needed to exist “yesterday.” Asked about Mark Chen’s claim that Zuck made soup to recruit people, Wang refuses to confirm or deny who made it but agrees the process was intense and personal. Visitors from other labs reportedly tell Wang the MSL culture feels like early OpenAI or early Anthropic, which lands as the strongest endorsement he could ask for.

    Receiving the Public Hits: Young, Inexperienced, Mercenary

    LeCun called Wang young and inexperienced shortly after departing. The two reconnected in India a few weeks later and LeCun congratulated Wang on MuseSpark. Wang says the age critique has followed him since his earliest Silicon Valley days, so he barely registers it. Altman, asked off-camera by Vance about Wang’s appearance on the show, had nothing flattering to add. Wang’s response is to bet that as the field gets closer to actual super intelligence, the personal animosities will subside. Whether they will is, as Vance puts it, an open question.

    MuseSpark as Appetizer, Not Entree

    Wang is careful not to oversell MuseSpark. He calls it “the appetizer” and says it is an early data point on a deliberately constructed scaling ladder. MSL spent nine months rebuilding the pre-training stack, the reinforcement learning stack, the data pipeline, and the science before generating MuseSpark. The point of releasing it was to show that the new program scales predictably along multiple axes (pre-training, RL, test-time compute, and the recently demonstrated multi-agent scaling visible in MuseSpark’s 16-agent content planning mode). Wang says the upcoming larger models are what MSL is genuinely excited about and frames the next two rungs as much more interesting than the current release.

    Token Efficiency Was the Surprise

    MuseSpark’s strongest competitive signal is how few tokens it needs to match competitors on tasks like Artificial Analysis. Wang attributes this to having had the rare luxury of building a clean pre-training and RL stack from scratch with the right experts. He speculates that some competitor models compensate for upstream inefficiency by allowing the model to think longer, which inflates token usage without improving the underlying capability. If that read is right, MSL’s efficiency advantage should grow as models scale up.

    Glasses, WhatsApp, and the Constellation of Devices

    Personal super intelligence shows up at Meta as a constellation of devices that capture context across the user’s day. Ray-Ban Meta glasses are the headline product, with the AI seeing what you see and hearing what you hear, then offering proactive insight or doing background research. Wang acknowledges that even AI-fluent users like Kylie Robinson, who runs her business inside WhatsApp, have not naturally used Meta’s AI buttons in the family of apps. His answer is that Meta deliberately waited for models to be good enough before tightening cross-app integration, and that integration phase is starting now.

    Country of Geniuses Versus Economy of Agents

    Wang’s framing of Meta’s strategic position is the most memorable line in the interview. Where Dario Amodei talks about a country of geniuses in a data center, Wang wants to build an economy of agents in a data center. Meta uniquely sits on both sides of consumer and small-business surface area, with billions of consumers and hundreds of millions of small businesses already on the platforms. If MSL can build great agents for both, then connect them so they transact and coordinate, the platform becomes a substrate for an entirely new kind of digital economy.

    Consumer Sentiment, Product Overhang, and the Trust Tax

    Wang concedes consumer AI sentiment is poor and that everyday users have not yet had a personal Claude Code moment. He believes the only durable answer is to ship products that genuinely transform individual agency for non-developers and small business owners. Robinson notes that for the small-town restaurant whose website has not been updated since 2002, a working agent on the business side could be transformational. Vance pushes that Meta carries a bigger trust tax than any other lab, so the bar for shipping AI products that the public will accept is correspondingly higher. Wang accepts the framing and says the answer is to keep building thoughtfully.

    Why MuseSpark Cannot Be Open Sourced Yet

    Meta’s Advanced AI Scaling Framework set explicit guardrails around bio, chem, cyber, and loss-of-control risks. MuseSpark in its current form tripped some of those internal evaluations, documented in the preparedness report Meta published alongside the model. So MuseSpark itself is not safe to open source. MSL is, however, developing smaller versions and derived models intended for open release, with active reviews happening the day of the interview. Wang reaffirms the commitment to open source where safety allows and draws a line back to the Open Compute Project and the Sun Microsystems-era ethos of openness in infrastructure.

    The Bosworth, Cox, and Manus Questions

    The reporting that Wang and Zuck push toward best-in-the-world research while Bosworth and Cox push toward cheap product deployment is dismissed as gossip dressed up as journalism. Wang says leadership debates points hard but is aligned on needing top models, integrating them into Meta’s surfaces, and serving the existing business. On Manus, the Chinese AI startup that figured in Meta’s late-stage strategy, Wang says he cannot comment, which itself signals that the situation is unresolved.

    China, National Security, and the Newspaper Ad

    Wang draws a sharp distinction between the Chinese state and Chinese-born researchers. His parents are from China, he is happy to work with talented researchers regardless of origin, and he sees a flattening of nuance on this question inside Silicon Valley. At the same time, he stands by the New York Times AI and war ad he ran while at Scale, framing it as an early plea for the US government to take AI seriously as a national security technology. He thinks subsequent events, including DeepSeek and other shocks, validated that call and that policymakers now do treat AI accordingly.

    Robotics and Physical Super Intelligence

    Meta has acquired Assured Robot Intelligence, an AI software company that builds models for multiple hardware targets rather than its own robot. Wang argues that if you take digital super intelligence seriously, physical super intelligence quickly becomes the next logical milestone. Scaling laws for robotic intelligence look similar enough to language model scaling that having the largest compute footprint in the industry would be wasted if it were not also turned toward world modeling and embodied learning. He grants the metaverse-skeptic critique exists but says retreating from ambition is the wrong response to past misfires.

    Health Super Intelligence and CZI

    Wang names health super intelligence as one of MSL’s anchor initiatives. Because billions of people already use Meta products daily, Wang believes Meta is structurally positioned to put powerful health AI in the hands of equal global access in a way nobody else can. The work will involve close collaboration with the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, which has its own multi-billion-dollar biotech and science investment program.

    Model Welfare, Sci-Fi, and Brain Models

    Two of the most distinctive moments come at the end. Wang flags model welfare as a topic he thinks is being undercovered relative to how integrated models now are in daily work. He is open to the idea that models may have measurable subjective experience worth weighing, and points to research efforts (including Eleos) trying to quantify it. He also reveals that FAIR’s Tribe program, with its Tribe B2 milestone, has produced foundation models capable of predicting how an unknown person’s brain would respond to images, video, and audio with reasonable zero-shot generalization, a building block toward future brain computer interfaces. Wang lists brain computer interfaces alongside super intelligence and robotics as the critical-path technologies for humanity, with energy, compute, and robots as the infinitely scaling primitives behind them.

    Where Wang Diverges From Elon

    Asked whether Musk is more all-in on robotics, energy, and BCI than anyone, Wang concedes the point but argues the details matter and sequencing matters more. Wang’s core philosophical break is that building super intelligence is fundamentally a research activity, not a scaling-only sprint. The lab is operating in fog of war, and ambitious experiments are the only way to map it. That conviction is what makes MSL a research-led organization rather than a brute-force compute farm.

    Thoughts

    The most strategically interesting move in this entire interview is the “economy of agents in a data center” framing. It is a deliberate reframe against Anthropic’s “country of geniuses” line, and it does real work. A country of geniuses is a labor-substitution story aimed at knowledge workers and code. An economy of agents is a marketplace story that maps directly onto Meta’s two-sided distribution advantage: billions of consumers on one side, hundreds of millions of small businesses on the other. That positioning makes the agentic future Meta-shaped in a way no other frontier lab can claim, because no other frontier lab also owns the demand and supply graph of the global small-business economy. If Wang’s team can actually ship reliable agents on both sides plus the rails for them to transact, Meta’s structural moat in agentic commerce could exceed anything Llama ever had as an open model.

    The token efficiency claim is the strongest piece of technical evidence in the interview for the “clean stack” thesis. If MuseSpark really is matching competitors with materially fewer tokens, the implication is not that MuseSpark is the best model today, but that MSL has rebuilt the foundations with less accumulated tech debt than competitors that have layered fixes on top of older stacks. That is exactly the kind of advantage that compounds with scale. The next two model releases are the actual test. If Wang is right about predictable scaling on pre-training, RL, test-time, and multi-agent axes simultaneously, the gap from MuseSpark to the next rung should be visible in a way that forces re-rating of Meta’s position.

    The open-source posture is the cleanest signal of how the safety conversation has actually changed in 2026. Meta, the lab most identified with open weights, is saying out loud that its current frontier model triggered enough internal guardrails that releasing the weights is off the table. Wang threads the needle by promising smaller open variants, but the underlying point is unmistakable: the open-weights bargain has limits, and those limits will be set by internal preparedness frameworks rather than community pressure. That is a real shift from the Llama 2 era and worth tracking as the next generation lands.

    Wang’s willingness to engage on model welfare, on roughly the same footing as safety and alignment, is the second philosophical reveal worth flagging. It signals that the next generation of lab leadership is not going to dismiss the topic the way the previous generation often did. Whether that translates into product or policy changes is unclear, but the fact that the head of MSL says it is “underdiscussed” is itself a marker.

    Finally, the human texture of the interview matters. Wang has clearly absorbed a lot of personal incoming fire over the past ten months, including from LeCun and Altman, and his answer is consistently to redirect to the work. The Steve Jobs quote about hiring people who tell you what to do is the operating slogan he keeps coming back to. Combined with the genuine enthusiasm for sci-fi, walks in the woods, and country music, the picture that emerges is less the salesman caricature his critics paint and more a young technical operator betting that scoreboard work over a multi-year horizon will settle every argument that text on X cannot.

    Watch the full conversation here.

  • Krishna Rao on Anthropic Going From 9 Billion to 30 Billion ARR in One Quarter and the Compute Strategy Powering Claude

    Krishna Rao, Chief Financial Officer of Anthropic, sat down with Patrick O’Shaughnessy on Invest Like the Best for one of the most detailed public looks yet at the operating engine behind Claude. He covers how Anthropic compounded from $9 billion of run rate revenue at the start of the year to north of $30 billion by the end of Q1, why he spends 30 to 40 percent of his time on compute, the playbook for buying gigawatts of AI infrastructure across Trainium, TPU, and GPU platforms, how Anthropic prices its models, why returns to frontier intelligence keep climbing, and what the Mythos release tells us about the cyber capabilities of the next generation of Claude.

    TLDW

    Anthropic is running the most compute fungible frontier lab in the world, with active deployments across AWS Trainium, Google TPU, and Nvidia GPU, and an internal orchestration layer that lets a chip serve inference in the morning and run reinforcement learning the same evening. Krishna Rao explains the cone of uncertainty that governs gigawatt scale compute procurement, the floor Anthropic refuses to drop below on model development compute, the Jevons paradox unlock from cutting Opus pricing, the 500 percent annualized net dollar retention from enterprise customers, the layer cake of long term deals with Google, Broadcom, Amazon, and the recent xAI Colossus tie up in Memphis, the phased release of the Mythos model in response to spiking cyber capabilities, the internal use of Claude Code to produce statutory financial statements and run a Monthly Financial Review skill, and why the team believes scaling laws are alive and well. The interview also covers fundraising history through Series D and Series E, the $75 billion already raised plus another $50 billion coming, talent density beating talent mass during the Meta poaching wave, and Rao’s belief that biotech and drug discovery represent the most exciting frontier for AI.

    Key Takeaways

    • Anthropic entered the year with about $9 billion of run rate revenue and ended the first quarter with north of $30 billion of run rate revenue, a more than 3x leap driven by model intelligence gains and the products built around them.
    • Compute is described as the lifeblood of the company, the canvas everything else is built on, and the most consequential class of decisions Rao makes. Buy too much and you go bankrupt. Buy too little and you cannot serve customers or stay at the frontier.
    • Rao spends 30 to 40 percent of his time on compute, even today, and the leadership team meets repeatedly on both procurement and ongoing compute allocation.
    • Anthropic is the only frontier language lab actively using all three major chip platforms in production: AWS Trainium, Google TPU, and Nvidia GPU. It is also the only major model available on all three clouds.
    • Flexibility is the central design principle. Anthropic builds flexibility into the deals themselves, into the orchestration layer that maps workloads to chips, and into compilers built from the chip level up.
    • The cone of uncertainty frames procurement. Small differences in weekly or monthly growth compound into wildly different two year outcomes, so the team plans across a range of scenarios rather than a single point estimate, and ranges toward the upper end while protecting downside.
    • Compute allocation across the company sits in three buckets: model development and research, internal employee acceleration, and external customer serving. A non negotiable floor protects model development even when customer demand is tight.
    • Anthropic estimates that if it cut off internal employee use of its own models, the freed compute could serve billions of dollars of additional revenue. It chooses not to, because internal use compounds into better future models.
    • Intelligence is multi dimensional, not a single IQ score. Anthropic measures real world capability through customer feedback, long horizon task performance, tool use, computer use, and speed at agentic tasks, not just leaderboard benchmarks that have largely saturated.
    • Each Opus generation, 4 to 4.5 to 4.6 to 4.7, delivers both capability improvements and an efficiency multiplier on token processing. New models often serve customers at a fraction of the prior cost while doing more.
    • Reinforcement learning is described as inference inside a sandbox with a reward function, so model efficiency gains directly improve internal RL throughput. The flywheel is tightly coupled.
    • Over 90 percent of code at Anthropic is now written by Claude Code, and a large share of Claude Code itself is written by Claude Code.
    • Anthropic shipped roughly 30 distinct product and feature releases in January and the pace has accelerated since.
    • Scaling laws, in Anthropic’s internal data, are alive and well. The team holds itself to a skeptical scientific standard and still does not see them slowing down.
    • Anthropic recently signed a 5 gigawatt deal with Google and Broadcom for TPUs starting in 2027, plus an Amazon Trainium agreement for up to 5 gigawatts, totaling more than $100 billion in commitments. A significant portion lands this year and next year.
    • A new partnership for capacity at the xAI Colossus facility in Memphis was announced just before the interview, aimed at expanding consumer and prosumer capacity.
    • Pricing has been remarkably stable across Haiku, Sonnet, and Opus. The biggest deliberate change was lowering Opus pricing, which produced a textbook Jevons paradox: consumption rose far faster than the price drop, and the new Opus 4.6 and 4.7 slot in at the same price point.
    • Mythos is the first model Anthropic chose to release in a phased way because of a sharp spike in cyber capability. In an open source codebase where a prior model found 22 security vulnerabilities, Mythos found roughly 250.
    • The Mythos release framework focuses on defensive use first, expands access over time, and is presented as a template for future capability spikes.
    • Anthropic now sells to 9 of the Fortune 10 and reports net dollar retention above 500 percent on an annualized basis. These are not pilots. Rao describes signing two double digit million dollar commitments during a 20 minute Uber ride to the studio.
    • The platform strategy is mostly horizontal. Anthropic will go vertical with offerings like Claude for Financial Services, Claude for Life Sciences, and Claude Security where it can demonstrate the model’s capabilities, but expects most application value to accrue to customers building on top.
    • Investors raised over $75 billion in equity since Rao joined, with another $50 billion in commitments tied to the Amazon and Google deals. Capital intensity is real, but the raises fund the upper end of the cone of uncertainty more than they fund current losses.
    • The Series E close coincided with the day the DeepSeek news broke, forcing investors to reassess their AI thesis in real time. Anthropic closed the round anyway.
    • Inside finance, Claude now produces statutory financial statements for every Anthropic legal entity, with a human checker. A library of more than 70 finance specific skills underpins workflows.
    • A custom Monthly Financial Review skill produces a 90 to 95 percent ready monthly close report, so leadership discussion shifts from reconciling numbers to debating implications.
    • An internal real time analytics platform called Anthrop Stats compresses weekly insight cycles from hours to about 30 minutes.
    • The biggest token user inside Anthropic’s finance team is the head of tax, focused on tax policy engines and workflow automation. The most senior people, not the youngest, are leading internal adoption.
    • Talent density beats talent mass. When Meta and others ran aggressive offer waves, Anthropic lost two people while peer labs lost dozens.
    • All seven Anthropic co founders remain at the company, as does most of the first 20 to 30 employees, which Rao credits to a collaborative, transparent, debate friendly culture and a real culture interview that can veto otherwise top tier candidates.
    • Dario Amodei holds an open all hands every two weeks, writes a short prepared document, and takes unscripted questions from anyone at the company.
    • AI safety investments in interpretability and alignment have a commercial side effect. Looking inside the model helps Anthropic build better models, and enterprises selling sensitive workloads want to trust the lab they hand customer data to.
    • Anthropic explicitly identifies as America first in its approach to model development, and engages closely with the US administration on capability releases such as Mythos.
    • The longer term product vision is the virtual collaborator: an agent with organizational context, access to the company’s tools, persistent memory, and the ability to work on ideas, not just tasks, over long horizons.
    • CoWork, Anthropic’s extension of the Claude Code paradigm into general knowledge work, is being adopted faster than Claude Code itself when indexed to the same point in its launch curve.
    • Anthropic’s product teams ship daily, with a fleet of agents working across the company on specific tasks. Everyone effectively becomes a manager of agents.
    • The dominant downside risks to Anthropic’s high end forecast are slower customer diffusion of model capability into real workflows, scaling laws flattening unexpectedly, and Anthropic losing its position at the frontier.
    • Rao is most excited about biotech and healthcare outcomes, especially the prospect that AI could push drug discovery and lab throughput up 10x or 100x, turning currently incurable diagnoses into treatable ones within a patient’s lifetime.

    Detailed Summary

    Compute as Lifeblood and the Cone of Uncertainty

    Rao opens with the claim that compute is the most important resource at Anthropic, and the most consequential decision class in the company. You cannot buy a gigawatt of compute next week. You have to anticipate demand a year or two in advance, and the cost of being wrong in either direction is high. Buy too much and the unit economics collapse. Buy too little and you cannot serve customers or stay at the frontier, which are described as the same failure mode. To navigate this, the team uses a cone of uncertainty rather than point estimates. Small differences in weekly growth compound into vastly different two year outcomes, and Anthropic tries to position itself toward the upper end of that cone while preserving optionality. Rao notes he has had to consciously break a lifetime of linear thinking and force himself into exponential models.

    Three Chip Platforms, One Orchestration Layer

    Anthropic uses Amazon’s Trainium, Google’s TPUs, and Nvidia’s GPUs fungibly. That was not free. Adopting TPUs at scale started around the third TPU generation, when outside observers thought it was a strange choice. Anthropic invested years into compilers and orchestration so workloads can flow across chips by generation and by job type. The team works deeply with Annapurna Labs at AWS to influence Trainium roadmaps because Anthropic stresses these chips harder than almost anyone. The result is what Rao believes is the most efficient utilization of compute across any frontier lab, with a dollar of compute going further inside Anthropic than anywhere else.

    Three Buckets and the Model Development Floor

    Compute gets allocated across model development, internal acceleration of employees, and customer serving. The conversations are collaborative rather than zero sum, but there is a hard floor on model development that the company refuses to cross even if it makes customer demand harder to serve in the short term. The thesis is simple. The returns to frontier intelligence are extremely high, especially in enterprise, so cutting model investment to chase near term revenue is a bad trade. Internal employee use is also explicitly protected. Rao notes that diverting that internal usage to external customers would unlock billions of additional revenue today, but the compounding benefit of accelerating researchers and engineers outweighs that.

    Intelligence Is Multi Dimensional

    Rao pushes back hard on the IQ framing of model progress. Benchmarks saturate quickly, and the real signal comes from how customers actually use the models. Anthropic looks at long horizon task completion, tool use, computer use, and time to result on agentic tasks. Two equally capable agents who differ only in speed produce dramatically different value, because the faster one compounds into more attempts and more outcomes. Frontier model leaps are also fuel efficient. The sedan to sports car analogy breaks down because each Opus generation, 4 to 4.5 to 4.6 to 4.7, delivers a step up in capability and a multiplier on per token efficiency.

    From 9 Billion to 30 Billion ARR in One Quarter

    The headline number for the quarter is a leap from about $9 billion of run rate revenue to over $30 billion, accomplished without onboarding a corresponding step up in compute, because new compute lands on ramps locked in 12 months prior. Rao attributes the leap to model capability gains, products that surface that intelligence in usable form factors, and an enterprise customer base that pulls more workloads onto Claude as each generation unlocks new use cases. Coding started the wave with Sonnet 3.5 and 3.6, and the same pattern is now playing out elsewhere in the economy.

    Recursive Self Improvement and Talent Density

    Over 90 percent of Anthropic’s code is now written by Claude Code, including most of Claude Code itself. Rao describes this as a structural reason to keep allocating internal compute to employees even when external demand is hungry. Recursive self improvement is not happening through models that need no humans. It is happening through researchers who set direction and use frontier models to compress months of work into days. Talent density beats talent mass. When Meta and other labs went after Anthropic researchers with very large packages, Anthropic lost two people while peer labs lost dozens.

    Procurement Strategy and the Layer Cake

    Compute lands as a layer cake. Last month Anthropic signed a 5 gigawatt TPU deal with Google and Broadcom starting in 2027, alongside an Amazon Trainium agreement for up to 5 gigawatts. The total is north of $100 billion in commitments. A new tie up with xAI’s Colossus facility in Memphis was announced just before the interview, intended for nearer term capacity to support consumer and prosumer growth. Anthropic evaluates near term and long term compute deals against the same set of variables: price, duration, location, chip type, and how efficiently the team can run it. The relationships are deeper than procurement. The hyperscalers are also distribution channels for the model.

    Platform First, Selective Vertical Bets

    Rao describes Anthropic as a platform first business, with most expected value accruing to customers building on the platform. The team will only go vertical when it can either demonstrate capabilities that are skating to where the puck is going, like Claude Code did before the models could fully support it, or when it wants to set a template for an industry vertical, as with Claude for Financial Services, Claude for Life Sciences, and Claude Security. He acknowledges that surprise capability jumps make customers anxious about the platform competing with them, and frames Anthropic’s mitigation as deeper partnerships, early access programs, and an emphasis on accelerating customer building rather than disintermediating it.

    Pricing, Jevons Paradox, and Return on Compute

    Pricing across Haiku, Sonnet, and Opus has been stable. The notable exception is Opus, which Anthropic deliberately repriced lower when launching Opus 4.5 because Opus class problems were being squeezed into Sonnet workloads. Efficiency gains made it possible to serve Opus profitably at the new level. The consumption response was a classic Jevons paradox, with usage rising far more than the price reduction would have predicted, and Opus 4.6 then slotted in at the same price with a capability bump. Margins are not framed as a per token markup. Compute is fungible across model development, internal acceleration, and customer serving, so Anthropic measures return on the entire compute envelope rather than software style variable cost per call.

    Fundraising, DeepSeek, and Capital Intensity

    Rao joined while Anthropic was closing its Series D, mid frontier model launch and during the FTX share liquidation. Investors initially questioned whether Anthropic needed a frontier model, whether AI safety and a real business could coexist, and why the sales team was so small. The Series E closed the same day the DeepSeek news broke, with markets violently re pricing AI in real time. Since Rao joined, Anthropic has raised over $75 billion, with another $50 billion tied to the Amazon and Google compute deals. The reason for the size of the raises is the cone of uncertainty, not current losses. Returns on compute today are described as robust.

    Mythos, Cyber Capability, and Phased Releases

    The Mythos release marks the first time Anthropic shipped a model under a deliberately phased rollout because of a specific capability spike. Cyber is the dimension that spiked. Where a prior model found 22 vulnerabilities in an open source codebase, Mythos found roughly 250. The defensive applications, automatically patching massive codebases, are genuinely valuable, but the offensive risk is real enough that Anthropic chose to release to a smaller group first and expand access over time. Rao positions this as a template for future capability spikes, not a permanent restriction. He also describes the relationship with the US administration as cooperative, including the Department of War interaction, with Anthropic supporting a regulatory framework that does not strangle innovation but takes responsibility seriously.

    Claude Inside Finance

    Anthropic’s finance team is one of the strongest internal case studies. Statutory financial statements for every legal entity are produced by Claude, with a human reviewer. A skill library of more than 70 finance specific skills underpins a Monthly Financial Review skill that drafts the monthly close at 90 to 95 percent ready, so leadership meetings shift from explaining the numbers to discussing what to do about them. An internal analytics platform called Anthrop Stats compresses weekly insight cycles from hours to 30 minutes. The biggest internal token user in finance is the head of tax, building policy engines, which Rao highlights as evidence that adoption is driven by the most senior people, not just younger engineers.

    Culture, Co Founders, and the Race to the Top

    Seven co founders should not, on paper, work as a leadership group. Rao argues it works because the culture was set early around collaboration, intellectual honesty, transparency, and humility. The culture interview is a real veto, not a checkbox. Dario Amodei runs an all hands every two weeks with a short written piece followed by unscripted questions, and decisions, once made, get clean alignment rather than residual politics. Anthropic frames its approach as a race to the top, where being a model for how to build the technology responsibly is itself a recruiting and retention advantage.

    The Virtual Collaborator and the Frontier Ahead

    The product vision Rao describes is the virtual collaborator. Not just a smarter chatbot, but an agent with organizational context, access to the company’s tools, memory, and the ability to work on ideas over long horizons. Coding was the first domain to feel this, but CoWork, Anthropic’s extension of the Claude Code pattern into general knowledge work, is being adopted faster than Claude Code was at the same age. Product development inside Anthropic already looks different. Teams ship daily, with fleets of agents working across the company, and individual humans increasingly act as managers of those fleets.

    Downside Risks and What Excites Him Most

    The three risks Rao names if asked to do a premortem on a softer year are slower customer diffusion of model capability into real workflows, scaling laws unexpectedly flattening, and Anthropic losing its frontier position to competitors. None of these are observed today, but he is unwilling to claim them with certainty. On the upside, he is most excited about biotech and healthcare. Lab throughput rising 10x or 100x, paired with AI assisted clinical workflows, could turn currently incurable diagnoses into treatable ones within a patient’s lifetime. That is the outcome he wants the technology to chase.

    Thoughts

    The most consequential structural point in this interview is the framing of compute as a single fungible resource pool measured by return on the entire envelope, not as a variable cost per inference call. That accounting shift, if you accept it, breaks most of the bear cases about AI lab unit economics. The bear argument almost always assumes that a token served to a customer is the only thing the chip did that day. Rao’s version is that the same fleet trains models in the morning, runs reinforcement learning at lunch, serves customers in the afternoon, and accelerates internal engineers in the evening. If even half of that is real, the right comparison is total compute spend versus total enterprise value created by the platform, and on that ratio Anthropic looks structurally strong rather than weak.

    The Jevons paradox on Opus pricing is the most actionable insight for anyone running an AI product. Most teams default to either chasing premium pricing on the newest model or undercutting to chase volume. Anthropic did something more disciplined: it left Sonnet and Haiku alone, dropped Opus when efficiency gains made it serveable, and watched aggregate usage rise faster than the price cut. The lesson is that frontier model pricing is not really a price problem. It is a capability access problem, and elasticity around the right tier is much higher than the standard SaaS playbook implies.

    The Mythos cyber jump deserves more attention than it has gotten. Going from 22 to 250 vulnerabilities found in the same codebase is the kind of capability discontinuity that genuinely changes the regulatory calculus. Anthropic is signaling that it can identify these discontinuities ahead of release and choose a deployment shape that respects them. Whether peer labs adopt similar discipline is the open question. Anthropic’s race to the top framing assumes they will be forced to. The competitive market may say otherwise.

    The hiring data point is the most underrated investor signal. Two departures while peer labs lost dozens, during the most aggressive talent war in tech history, is not a culture poster. It is a structural advantage that compounds every time another lab tries to buy its way to the frontier. Money can be matched. Conviction in the mission, transparent leadership, and a culture interview that can veto otherwise stellar candidates cannot. If you believe scaling laws hold, talent retention at this density is one of the few moats that actually scales with capital.

    Finally, the most interesting personal admission is that Krishna Rao, a finance leader trained at Blackstone and Cedar, is openly telling investors that linear thinking is the failure mode he had to break out of. The companies that pattern match this moment to prior technology waves are mispricing it, in both directions. The cone of uncertainty Anthropic uses internally is the right metaphor for everyone else too. If you are forecasting AI as if it is cloud in 2010, you are almost certainly wrong, and the magnitude of the error is much larger than it would be in any prior era.

    Watch the full conversation with Krishna Rao on Invest Like the Best here.

  • Bubbles, Parabolas and Speed Crashes: How AI Agents Are Ending Human Market Structure and Why This Is Not the Dot-Com Bubble

    The host opens this Saturday morning macro and AI markets video with a direct challenge to anyone calling the current move a bubble. The argument is that the market structure itself has changed, that AI agents now dominate trading and capital allocation, and that Charles Kindleberger’s Manias, Panics, and Crashes describes a world that no longer exists. The full hour-long conversation walks through earnings, PEG ratios, capex, the benchmark arbitrage trapping passive investors, the inflation regime shift, and where money is rotating now. Watch the original video here.

    TLDW

    AI is not a bubble in the Kindleberger sense because the market is no longer dominated by emotional human professionals. AI agents, retail risk-takers, and passive flows are reshaping price discovery while the spend is being funded by free cash flow from the most cash-rich companies in history, not bond-issuance manias like telecoms or oil. Earnings growth is 27 percent, semiconductor sales grew 88 percent year over year in March, OpenAI and Anthropic revenue is on near-vertical curves, Nvidia’s PE is at decade lows even as Cisco’s was 130 at the dot-com peak, and the PEG ratio for the S&P sits at 1.03 with one third of the host’s thematic basket under 1.0 while Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, Apple, and Alphabet all carry richer PEGs. The new regime brings speed crashes instead of multi-year recessions, persistent bottlenecks in power, chips, transportation, and chemicals, inflation pressure that pushes three-month bills below CPI for the first time since the inflation era, and a benchmark arbitrage forcing passive money to chase AI exposure. The host is selling two thirds of his Micron, rotating into Nvidia, Vistra, silver, Bitcoin, and Ethereum, and warning that tokenization launches scheduled for July 26 will be the next major regime change.

    Key Takeaways

    • The word bubble is being misapplied because the same people calling AI a bubble called QE, tariffs, oil, Bitcoin, and passive investing bubbles for fifteen years and were wrong every time.
    • Kindleberger’s Manias, Panics, and Crashes described a slow, linear, human-emotion-driven world. AI agents have no emotion, no memory of Druckenmiller’s 2000 top, and one goal: make money.
    • The simplest test for anyone bearish on AI is to ask how much they use artificial intelligence. If they have not used a tool like OpenClaw or similar agentic systems, they are still operating in the old market regime.
    • This buildout is funded by free cash flow and bond issuance at yields better than US Treasuries from companies with stronger balance sheets than the federal government, unlike the dot-com telecoms or 1970s oil majors.
    • The S&P 500 is up only 7 percent year to date. The bubble framing is being applied to a handful of names, not to broad indices that remain reasonably valued.
    • The agentic stage of AI started in late November and accelerated when OpenClaw went viral at the end of January. Token consumption is set to grow 15 to 50 times from the IQ stage.
    • Anthropic revenue is stair-stepping from 5 to 7 to 9 to 14 to 19 to 24 to 30 billion in annualized run rate, on pace to surpass Alphabet in revenue by mid-2028.
    • OpenAI’s backlog hit 1.3 to 1.4 trillion in the most recent earnings cycle and the company still does not have enough compute.
    • Dario Amodei told the world Anthropic was planning for 10 times growth per year. In Q1 they saw 80 times annualized growth, which is why compute is bottlenecked and Anthropic is renting from Amazon, Google, and Colossus.
    • S&P 500 earnings growth is 27.1 percent year over year. The only quarters that match are those coming out of recessions, and this is not a reopening trade.
    • 320 of 500 S&P companies have reported and the average earnings surprise is 20 percent. Forward estimates are up 25 percent year over year as analysts revise upward against the historical pattern.
    • Total semiconductor sales grew 88 percent year over year in March. Semis have moved in proportion to earnings, not in excess of them.
    • Cisco’s PE was 130 at the dot-com peak. Nvidia’s PE today is the lowest of the last decade because professionals cannot run concentrated positions in single names.
    • The Edward Yardeni PEG ratio for the S&P is 1.03. The hyperscalers are not cheap on PEG: Microsoft 1.4, Amazon 1.66, Meta 1.96, Apple 3, Alphabet near 5. Thirty of ninety-five names in the host’s thematic portfolio carry PEGs under 1.0.
    • Passive investing creates a benchmark arbitrage. Everyone long the S&P 500 through index funds is structurally underweight Intel, Nvidia, Micron, and every name actually going up. Pension funds and mutual funds are forced to chase AI exposure to keep up.
    • BlackRock’s Tony Kim at the Milken conference: compute and model layers added 8 trillion in market cap year to date while the service apps that make up two thirds of GDP lost 1.2 trillion. The benchmark arbitrage is already running.
    • Larry Fink predicted a futures market for computing power. Power plus chips is the oil of the intelligence economy.
    • Jensen Huang called this a 90 trillion dollar AI physical upgrade cycle. The one big beautiful bill bonus depreciation provision was designed to incentivize this capex magic.
    • The host is selling two thirds of his Micron position. The reasoning is the memory market started moving in September of last year, the DRAM ETF is the ninth most traded ETF with billion dollar daily volumes, and exhaustion indicators are flashing red.
    • Money from Micron is rotating into Nvidia, Vistra, silver, Bitcoin, and Ethereum. The view is that the energy and power side of the AI stack is lagging the semis and will catch up next.
    • Silver versus gold has not moved while Micron has gone parabolic. LME metals are breaking out. China is increasing gold purchases significantly month over month.
    • The expected CPI print of 3.7 percent will put three-month Treasury bills below CPI for the first time since the post-pandemic inflation era. That is when Bitcoin started its last major run.
    • Logistics Managers Index hit 69.9 in March, the fastest expansion since March 2022. Transportation prices are surging because there is no capacity. This typically only happens during tax cuts or post-COVID reopenings.
    • Payroll job creation in information, professional services, and financial activities is negative. AI is already replacing knowledge work. Job creation has shifted to mining, manufacturing, construction, trade, transportation, and utilities, which is structurally inflationary.
    • Whirlpool says appliance demand is at great financial crisis lows. The consumer PC and laptop market collapse is worse than 2008. AI is pulling capital and pricing power away from legacy consumer categories.
    • Mike Wilson’s data shows reacceleration across sectors, not just large cap tech. Small caps and median stocks are showing earnings growth too, just at smaller market caps.
    • Chevron’s CEO says global oil shortages are starting. Jeff Currie warns US storage tanks will run empty. Ships are still not transiting the Strait of Hormuz. Countries that learned this lesson will restock to higher inventory levels permanently.
    • The Renmac Bubble Watch threshold was crossed on a technical basis. The host considers technical exhaustion a stronger signal than narrative-driven bubble calls.
    • Goldman Sachs power demand reports, Guggenheim warnings on the power crunch, and BlackRock’s compute intensity research all triangulate on the same conclusion: capex needs are larger than current forecasts.
    • The thematic portfolio is up roughly 30 percent from March lows. Power, optical fiber, advanced packaging, chemicals, and rack-level infrastructure baskets are leading.
    • Sterling Infrastructure (STRL), Fluence batteries, ABB electrification, Hon Hai (Foxconn), Vistra, Eaton, and Soitec are highlighted as names lagging the megacaps but inside the same AI infrastructure trade.
    • John Roque at 22V Research is releasing weekly frozen rope charts, long-base breakouts across power, copper, grid equipment, utilities, natural gas, transportation, capital goods, and agriculture. They all map to the same AI plus inflation regime.
    • Bitcoin ETF outstanding shares hit new highs. BlackRock, Morgan Stanley, and Goldman are all running competitive products. Boomer and wealth manager allocation is accelerating into year end.
    • Tokenization rolls out July 26. Wall Street clearing has enlisted 50 firms. A16Z published their case in December 2024. The host considers this underweighted by most investors and is speaking on the topic at the II event in Fort Lauderdale.
    • Raoul Pal and Yoni Assia on the end of human trading: AI agents and crypto collide by moving finance from human speed to machine speed. Agents will trade, allocate, hedge, and shift capital through wallets and exchanges. Tokenization means ownership becomes programmable.
    • The new regime is bubbles, parabolas, and speed crashes. Corrections compress from years into months. The right strategy is to never go to cash, only to rebalance and slow down within the portfolio.
    • For traders, exhaustion indicators using 5-day and 14-day RSI plus DeMark signals identify potential speed crash setups. Intel and Micron are flashing red on those screens right now.

    Detailed Summary

    Why this is not Kindleberger’s world anymore

    The framing argument of the video is that Manias, Panics, and Crashes described a market dominated by human professionals operating with limited information and lagged feedback loops. When supply and demand fell out of sync, prices collapsed because nobody could see what was happening in real time. That world is gone. AI agents now manage a majority of professional fund flows. Information moves instantaneously. Retail investors trade differently than institutional pros, and the capital structure of the entire market has changed. The host argues that since the Great Financial Crisis, the combination of QE and exponential corporate growth produced the only companies in history worth 25 trillion dollars combined with no net debt. Their AI capex is funded by free cash flow and high-grade bonds, not panicked bond issuance like the dot-com telecoms or oil majors of the 1970s.

    The Druckenmiller anchor and why FOMO is the wrong lens

    The video reads the Stanley Druckenmiller story of buying six billion in tech at the 2000 top and losing three billion in six weeks. Every professional carries that scar. It has shaped a generation of money managers into seeing parabolic moves and immediately calling bubble. The host’s counter is that recession calls from wealthy professionals are themselves a form of hope. Cash-rich investors root for crashes because crashes give them entry points. If the bubble never breaks the way it broke in 2000, those investors stay locked out, and that is precisely what the AI regime is doing.

    Earnings, revenue, and the reality test

    The video walks through current numbers in detail. S&P 500 earnings growth is running 27.1 percent year over year, which only happens coming out of recessions. 320 companies have reported with an average 20 percent earnings surprise. Forward estimates were revised up 25 percent year over year, well above the historical pattern of starting-year estimates getting cut. Total semiconductor sales were up 88 percent year over year in March. Anthropic’s revenue trajectory is stair-stepping from 5 to 30 billion in annualized run rate on the back of Claude Opus 4.5, putting it on track to surpass Alphabet by mid-2028. OpenAI is sitting on a 1.3 to 1.4 trillion backlog and still cannot get enough compute. Dario Amodei told the public Anthropic planned for 10 times growth per year and saw 80 times in Q1.

    PE, PEG, and the valuation argument

    Cisco’s PE at the dot-com peak was 130. Nvidia, the indisputable lead dog of the AI buildout, currently has a PE at the lowest of its last decade. The S&P 500’s PE is roughly where it has been since the post-COVID money printing era, far below the dot-com peak. Edward Yardeni’s PEG ratio for the index sits at 1.03. The host built a PEG screen for his ninety-five name thematic portfolio. Thirty of those names trade at a PEG under 1.0. The hyperscalers everyone holds passively are the expensive ones: Microsoft 1.4, Amazon 1.66, Meta 1.96, Apple 3, Alphabet near 5. The capacity for forward PE compression sits in the names retail and active rotational money are buying, not in the index core.

    The benchmark arbitrage trap

    Most money is now in passive investing. By construction, an S&P 500 or MSCI World allocation is underweight the names that are actually rising. Pension funds, mutual funds, and any active manager benchmarked to those indices is forced to add AI exposure to keep pace. BlackRock’s Tony Kim made this point at Milken: 8 trillion in market cap has accrued to compute and model layers year to date, while service apps representing two thirds of GDP lost 1.2 trillion. The host calls this benchmark arbitrage and considers it the single most underappreciated driver of the current move.

    The 90 trillion dollar physical upgrade cycle

    Jensen Huang’s framing of a 90 trillion dollar AI upgrade includes autos, phones, computers, humanoids, robotics, and the military stack. The host considers this a global race between the US and China. The one big beautiful bill included bonus depreciation specifically to incentivize the capex push. Greg Brockman’s interview with Sequoia made the point that demand for intelligence is effectively unlimited, and that every company outside the hyperscalers, Morgan Stanley, Goldman, Eli Lilly, Merck, United Healthcare, needs their own data center compute or their margins will not keep up with competitors. In a capitalist system, that forces broad enterprise AI spending.

    Speed crashes replace recessions

    The new regime has corrections but they are fast. Since 2020 we have had multiple 20 percent corrections compressed into weeks instead of years. The host expects this pattern to continue for the next decade. Bottlenecks in power, chips, transportation, chemicals, and skilled labor will produce inflation spikes that trigger speed crashes, not traditional credit-cycle recessions. The Logistics Managers Index reading of 69.9 in March, with capacity contraction near record lows, signals exactly this kind of bottleneck environment. The host’s strategy in this regime is to never go to cash, only to rebalance and slow down within the portfolio.

    The inflation regime shift and the rotation out of Micron

    The expected CPI print of 3.7 percent will put three-month Treasury bills below CPI for the first time since the post-pandemic inflation era, restoring negative real yields. That was the condition under which Bitcoin first launched its major bull moves. The host has sold two thirds of his Micron position despite continued bullish conviction on the name, because the memory market is the most stretched on exhaustion indicators and the DRAM ETF is trading at unprecedented volume. The capital is rotating into Nvidia, Vistra, silver, Bitcoin, and Ethereum. Silver versus gold has not moved while semis went parabolic. LME metals are breaking out. China is increasing gold purchases. The energy and power side of the stack is the next leg up.

    AI is breaking the consumer and the labor market

    Whirlpool reports appliance demand at financial crisis lows. PCs and laptops are collapsing worse than 2008. Phones, autos, housing, all the categories Kindleberger’s framework was built around are under pressure because AI is pulling capital and pricing power into compute, power, and chemicals. Payroll job creation in information, professional services, and financial activities is negative as AI takes knowledge work. Job creation is rotating into mining, construction, manufacturing, trade, transportation, and utilities, which is structurally inflationary because those sectors require physical capacity and wages. That combination, wage inflation plus commodity inflation, makes it very difficult for the Fed to ease, even with Kevin Warsh likely taking over.

    Crypto, tokenization, and AI agents at machine speed

    The final section pivots to crypto. Bitcoin ETF outstanding shares hit new highs, BlackRock’s product remains dominant, and Morgan Stanley and Goldman have launched competing vehicles. Wealth managers and boomers are allocating. The Raoul Pal and Yoni Assia conversation on the end of human trading is the host’s headline reference: AI agents will trade, allocate, hedge, and shift capital at machine speed through programmable wallets and exchanges. Tokenization, scheduled for a major launch on July 26 with 50 Wall Street clearing firms onboarded, makes ownership programmable. A16Z laid out the case in December 2024. The host is speaking on tokenization at the II event in Fort Lauderdale May 13 through 15 and considers it the next regime-defining shift after agentic AI.

    Thoughts

    The strongest argument in this video is structural, not narrative. The shift from human professionals with anchored memories to AI agents and benchmark-driven passive flows is a real change in who sets prices. Whether or not you accept the host’s portfolio calls, the framing should make any investor pause before defaulting to dot-com pattern recognition. Cisco’s PE was 130 with no business model. Nvidia’s PE is at a decade low with a near monopoly on the picks and shovels of the largest capex cycle in industrial history. Those facts cannot both be true and produce the same outcome.

    The PEG framework is the cleanest test in the video. If you believe Nvidia, Micron, Intel, and the second-tier AI infrastructure names are bubbles, you are implicitly betting that earnings growth collapses. That bet was viable in 2000 because the companies driving the move had no earnings. It is much harder to bet against earnings growth when 320 companies have just printed a 20 percent average earnings beat and analysts are revising forward estimates up by 25 percent. The host’s argument is not that the prices are reasonable in absolute terms. It is that the bear case requires growth to fall off a cliff, and nothing in the order books, the capex commitments, or the compute backlog suggests that is imminent.

    The benchmark arbitrage point deserves more attention than it gets. If the majority of professional money is locked in passive structures that are by definition underweight the leading names, and if those managers are evaluated quarter to quarter against the benchmark they cannot match, the pressure to chase will compound. This is the opposite of the dot-com setup, where active managers were forced to add overpriced tech to keep up with the index. Here, the index itself is structurally underweight the trade, and the active managers chasing it are doing so against names with rational PEG ratios.

    The rotation thesis from Micron into power, silver, and crypto is more debatable. The energy and bottleneck story is real, but the timing of when the power trade catches up with the semi trade is the hard part. The host’s discipline of never going to cash and rebalancing through the cycle is a sensible response to a regime that produces speed crashes rather than slow drawdowns. The investors most hurt by this regime will not be the ones who are long the wrong names. They will be the ones who sit out waiting for an entry point that never comes.

    Tokenization is the most underappreciated thread in the video. If the July 26 rollout brings 50 clearing firms and real ownership programmability online, the second half of the year could produce a regime shift on top of the AI regime shift. AI agents transacting on tokenized assets at machine speed is the logical endpoint of the trends the host has been tracking, and it is the part of his framework that current market consensus has not yet priced.

    Watch the full conversation here.

  • Dario Amodei on the AGI Exponential: Anthropic’s High-Stakes Financial Model and the Future of Intelligence

    TL;DW (Too Long; Didn’t Watch)

    Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei joined Dwarkesh Patel for a high-stakes deep dive into the endgame of the AI exponential. Amodei predicts that by 2026 or 2027, we will reach a “country of geniuses in a data center”—AI systems capable of Nobel Prize-level intellectual work across all digital domains. While technical scaling remains remarkably smooth, Amodei warns that the real-world friction of economic diffusion and the ruinous financial risks of $100 billion training clusters are now the primary bottlenecks to total global transformation.

    Key Takeaways

    • The Big Blob Hypothesis: Intelligence is an emergent property of scaling compute, data, and broad distribution; specific algorithmic “cleverness” is often just a temporary workaround for lack of scale.
    • AGI is a 2026-2027 Event: Amodei is 90% certain we reach genius-level AGI by 2035, with a strong “hunch” that the technical threshold for a “country of geniuses” arrives in the next 12-24 months.
    • Software Engineering is the First Domino: Within 6-12 months, models will likely perform end-to-end software engineering tasks, shifting human engineers from “writers” to “editors” and strategic directors.
    • The $100 Billion Gamble: AI labs are entering a “Cournot equilibrium” where massive capital requirements create a high barrier to entry. Being off by just one year in revenue growth projections can lead to company-wide bankruptcy.
    • Economic Diffusion Lag: Even after AGI-level capabilities exist in the lab, real-world adoption (curing diseases, legal integration) will take years due to regulatory “jamming” and organizational change management.

    Detailed Summary: Scaling, Risk, and the Post-Labor Economy

    The Three Laws of Scaling

    Amodei revisits his foundational “Big Blob of Compute” hypothesis, asserting that intelligence scales predictably when compute and data are scaled in proportion—a process he likens to a chemical reaction. He notes a shift from pure pre-training scaling to a new regime of Reinforcement Learning (RL) and Test-Time Scaling. These allow models to “think” longer at inference time, unlocking reasoning capabilities that pre-training alone could not achieve. Crucially, these new scaling laws appear just as smooth and predictable as the ones that preceded them.

    The “Country of Geniuses” and the End of Code

    A recurring theme is the imminent automation of software engineering. Amodei predicts that AI will soon handle end-to-end SWE tasks, including setting technical direction and managing environments. He argues that because AI can ingest a million-line codebase into its context window in seconds, it bypasses the months of “on-the-job” learning required by human engineers. This “country of geniuses” will operate at 10-100x human speed, potentially compressing a century of biological and technical progress into a single decade—a concept he calls the “Compressed 21st Century.”

    Financial Models and Ruinous Risk

    The economics of building the first AGI are terrifying. Anthropic’s revenue has scaled 10x annually (zero to $10 billion in three years), but labs are trapped in a cycle of spending every dollar on the next, larger cluster. Amodei explains that building a $100 billion data center requires a 2-year lead time; if demand growth slows from 10x to 5x during that window, the lab collapses. This financial pressure forces a “soft takeoff” where labs must remain profitable on current models to fund the next leap.

    Governance and the Authoritarian Threat

    Amodei expresses deep concern over “offense-dominant” AI, where a single misaligned model could cause catastrophic damage. He advocates for “AI Constitutions”—teaching models principles like “honesty” and “harm avoidance” rather than rigid rules—to allow for better generalization. Geopolitically, he supports aggressive chip export controls, arguing that democratic nations must hold the “stronger hand” during the inevitable post-AI world order negotiations to prevent a global “totalitarian nightmare.”

    Final Thoughts: The Intelligence Overhang

    The most chilling takeaway from this interview is the concept of the Intelligence Overhang: the gap between what AI can do in a lab and what the economy is prepared to absorb. Amodei suggests that while the “silicon geniuses” will arrive shortly, our institutions—the FDA, the legal system, and corporate procurement—are “jammed.” We are heading into a world of radical “biological freedom” and the potential cure for most diseases, yet we may be stuck in a decade-long regulatory bottleneck while the “country of geniuses” sits idle in their data centers. The winner of the next era won’t just be the lab with the most FLOPs, but the society that can most rapidly retool its institutions to survive its own technological adolescence.

    For more insights, visit Anthropic or check out the full transcript at Dwarkesh Patel’s Podcast.

  • AI Industry Pioneers Advocate for Consideration of Potential Challenges Amid Rapid Technological Progress

    AI Industry Pioneers Advocate for Consideration of Potential Challenges Amid Rapid Technological Progress

    On Tuesday, a collective of industry frontrunners plans to express their concern about the potential implications of artificial intelligence technology, which they have a hand in developing. They suggest that it could potentially pose significant challenges to society, paralleling the severity of pandemics and nuclear conflicts.

    The anticipated statement from the Center for AI Safety, a nonprofit organization, will call for a global focus on minimizing potential challenges from AI. This aligns it with other significant societal issues, such as pandemics and nuclear war. Over 350 AI executives, researchers, and engineers have signed this open letter.

    Signatories include chief executives from leading AI companies such as OpenAI’s Sam Altman, Google DeepMind’s Demis Hassabis, and Anthropic’s Dario Amodei.

    In addition, Geoffrey Hinton and Yoshua Bengio, two Turing Award-winning researchers for their pioneering work on neural networks, have signed the statement, along with other esteemed researchers. Yann LeCun, the third Turing Award winner, who leads Meta’s AI research efforts, had not signed as of Tuesday.

    This statement arrives amidst escalating debates regarding the potential consequences of artificial intelligence. Innovations in large language models, as employed by ChatGPT and other chatbots, have sparked concerns about the misuse of AI in spreading misinformation or possibly disrupting numerous white-collar jobs.

    While the specifics are not always elaborated, some in the field argue that unmitigated AI developments could lead to societal-scale disruptions in the not-so-distant future.

    Interestingly, these concerns are echoed by many industry leaders, placing them in the unique position of suggesting tighter regulations on the very technology they are working to develop and advance.

    In an attempt to address these concerns, Altman, Hassabis, and Amodei recently engaged in a conversation with President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris on the topic of AI regulation. Following this meeting, Altman emphasized the importance of government intervention to mitigate the potential challenges posed by advanced AI systems.

    In an interview, Dan Hendrycks, executive director of the Center for AI Safety, suggested that the open letter represented a public acknowledgment from some industry figures who previously only privately expressed their concerns about potential risks associated with AI technology development.

    While some critics argue that current AI technology is too nascent to pose a significant threat, others contend that the rapid progress of AI has already exceeded human performance in some areas. These proponents believe that the emergence of “artificial general intelligence,” or AGI, an AI capable of performing a wide variety of tasks at or beyond human-level performance, may not be too far off.

    In a recent blog post, Altman, along with two other OpenAI executives, proposed several strategies to manage powerful AI systems responsibly. They proposed increased cooperation among AI developers, further technical research into large language models, and the establishment of an international AI safety organization akin to the International Atomic Energy Agency.

    Furthermore, Altman has endorsed regulations requiring the developers of advanced AI models to obtain a government-issued license.

    Earlier this year, over 1,000 technologists and researchers signed another open letter advocating for a six-month halt on the development of the largest AI models. They cited fears about an unregulated rush to develop increasingly powerful digital minds.

    The new statement from the Center for AI Safety is brief, aiming to unite AI experts who share general concerns about powerful AI systems, regardless of their views on specific risks or prevention strategies.

    Geoffrey Hinton, a high-profile AI expert, recently left his position at Google to openly discuss potential AI implications. The statement has since been circulated and signed by some employees at major AI labs.

    The recent increased use of AI chatbots for entertainment, companionship, and productivity, combined with the rapid advancements in the underlying technology, has amplified the urgency of addressing these concerns.

    Altman emphasized this urgency in his Senate subcommittee testimony, saying, “We want to work with the government to prevent [potential challenges].”