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Tag: Dwarkesh Patel

  • Ilya Sutskever on the “Age of Research”: Why Scaling Is No Longer Enough for AGI

    In a rare and revealing discussion on November 25, 2025, Ilya Sutskever sat down with Dwarkesh Patel to discuss the strategy behind his new company, Safe Superintelligence (SSI), and the fundamental shifts occurring in the field of AI.

    TL;DW

    Ilya Sutskever argues we have moved from the “Age of Scaling” (2020–2025) back to the “Age of Research.” While current models ace difficult benchmarks, they suffer from “jaggedness” and fail at basic generalization where humans excel. SSI is betting on finding a new technical paradigm—beyond just adding more compute to pre-training—to unlock true superintelligence, with a timeline estimated between 5 to 20 years.

    Key Takeaways

    • The End of the Scaling Era: Scaling “sucked the air out of the room” for years. While compute is still vital, we have reached a point where simply adding more data/compute to the current recipe yields diminishing returns. We need new ideas.
    • The “Jaggedness” of AI: Models can solve PhD-level physics problems but fail to fix a simple coding bug without introducing a new one. This disconnect proves current generalization is fundamentally flawed compared to human learning.
    • SSI’s “Straight Shot” Strategy: Unlike competitors racing to release incremental products, SSI aims to stay private and focus purely on R&D until they crack safe superintelligence, though Ilya admits some incremental release may be necessary to demonstrate power to the public.
    • The 5-20 Year Timeline: Ilya predicts it will take 5 to 20 years to achieve a system that can learn as efficiently as a human and subsequently become superintelligent.
    • Neuralink++ as Equilibrium: In the very long run, to maintain relevance in a world of superintelligence, Ilya suggests humans may need to merge with AI (e.g., “Neuralink++”) to fully understand and participate in the AI’s decision-making.

    Detailed Summary

    1. The Generalization Gap: Humans vs. Models

    A core theme of the conversation was the concept of generalization. Ilya highlighted a paradox: AI models are superhuman at “competitive programming” (because they’ve seen every problem exists) but lack the “it factor” to function as reliable engineers. He used the analogy of a student who memorizes 10,000 problems versus one who understands the underlying principles with only 100 hours of study. Current AIs are the former; they don’t actually learn the way humans do.

    He pointed out that human robustness—like a teenager learning to drive in 10 hours—relies on a “value function” (often driven by emotion) that current Reinforcement Learning (RL) paradigms fail to capture efficiently.

    2. From Scaling Back to Research

    Ilya categorized the history of modern AI into eras:

    • 2012–2020: The Age of Research (Discovery of AlexNet, Transformers).
    • 2020–2025: The Age of Scaling (The consensus that “bigger is better”).
    • 2025 Onwards: The New Age of Research.

    He argues that pre-training data is finite and we are hitting the limits of what the current “recipe” can do. The industry is now “scaling RL,” but without a fundamental breakthrough in how models learn and generalize, we won’t reach AGI. SSI is positioning itself to find that missing breakthrough.

    3. Alignment and “Caring for Sentient Life”

    When discussing safety, Ilya moved away from complex RLHF mechanics to a more philosophical “North Star.” He believes the safest path is to build an AI that has a robust, baked-in drive to “care for sentient life.”

    He theorizes that it might be easier to align an AI to care about all sentient beings (rather than just humans) because the AI itself will eventually be sentient. He draws parallels to human evolution: just as evolution hard-coded social desires and empathy into our biology, we must find the equivalent “mathematical” way to hard-code this care into superintelligence.

    4. The Future of SSI

    Safe Superintelligence (SSI) is explicitly an “Age of Research” company. They are not interested in the “rat race” of releasing slightly better chatbots every few months. Ilya’s vision is to insulate the team from market pressures to focus on the “straight shot” to superintelligence. However, he conceded that demonstrating the AI’s power incrementally might be necessary to wake the world (and governments) up to the reality of what is coming.

    Thoughts and Analysis

    This interview marks a significant shift in the narrative of the AI frontier. For the last five years, the dominant strategy has been “scale is all you need.” For the godfather of modern AI to explicitly declare that era over—and that we are missing a fundamental piece of the puzzle regarding generalization—is a massive signal.

    Ilya seems to be betting that the current crop of LLMs, while impressive, are essentially “memorization engines” rather than “reasoning engines.” His focus on the sample efficiency of human learning (how little data we need to learn a new skill) suggests that SSI is looking for a new architecture or training paradigm that mimics biological learning more closely than the brute-force statistical correlation of today’s Transformers.

    Finally, his comment on Neuralink++ is striking. It suggests that in his view, the “alignment problem” might technically be unsolvable in a traditional sense (humans controlling gods), and the only stable long-term outcome is the merger of biological and digital intelligence.

  • Dwarkesh Patel: From Podcasting Prodigy to AI Chronicler with The Scaling Era

    TLDW (Too Long; Didn’t Watch)

    Dwarkesh Patel, a 24-year-old podcasting sensation, has made waves with his deep, unapologetically intellectual interviews on science, history, and technology. In a recent Core Memory Podcast episode hosted by Ashlee Vance, Patel announced his new book, The Scaling Era: An Oral History of AI, co-authored with Gavin Leech and published by Stripe Press. Released digitally on March 25, 2025, with a hardcover to follow in July, the book compiles insights from AI luminaries like Mark Zuckerberg and Satya Nadella, offering a vivid snapshot of the current AI revolution. Patel’s journey from a computer science student to a chronicler of the AI age, his optimistic vision for a future enriched by artificial intelligence, and his reflections on podcasting as a tool for learning and growth take center stage in this engaging conversation.

    At just 24, Dwarkesh Patel has carved out a unique niche in the crowded world of podcasting. Known for his probing interviews with scientists, historians, and tech pioneers, Patel refuses to pander to short attention spans, instead diving deep into complex topics with a gravitas that belies his age. On March 25, 2025, he joined Ashlee Vance on the Core Memory Podcast to discuss his life, his meteoric rise, and his latest venture: a book titled The Scaling Era: An Oral History of AI, published by Stripe Press. The episode, recorded in Patel’s San Francisco studio, offers a window into the mind of a young intellectual who’s become a key voice in documenting the AI revolution.

    Patel’s podcasting career began as a side project while he was a computer science student at the University of Texas. What started with interviews of economists like Bryan Caplan and Tyler Cowen has since expanded into a platform—the Lunar Society—that tackles everything from ancient DNA to military history. But it’s his focus on artificial intelligence that has garnered the most attention in recent years. Having interviewed the likes of Dario Amodei, Satya Nadella, and Mark Zuckerberg, Patel has positioned himself at the epicenter of the AI boom, capturing the thoughts of the field’s biggest players as large language models reshape the world.

    The Scaling Era, co-authored with Gavin Leech, is the culmination of these efforts. Released digitally on March 25, 2025, with a print edition slated for July, the book stitches together Patel’s interviews into a cohesive narrative, enriched with commentary, footnotes, and charts. It’s an oral history of what Patel calls the “scaling era”—the period where throwing more compute and data at AI models has yielded astonishing, often mysterious, leaps in capability. “It’s one of those things where afterwards, you can’t get the sense of how people were thinking about it at the time,” Patel told Vance, emphasizing the book’s value as a time capsule of this pivotal moment.

    The process of creating The Scaling Era was no small feat. Patel credits co-author Leech and editor Rebecca for helping weave disparate perspectives—from computer scientists to primatologists—into a unified story. The first chapter, for instance, explores why scaling works, drawing on insights from AI researchers, neuroscientists, and anthropologists. “Seeing all these snippets next to each other was a really fun experience,” Patel said, highlighting how the book connects dots he’d overlooked in his standalone interviews.

    Beyond the book, the podcast delves into Patel’s personal story. Born in India, he moved to the U.S. at age eight, bouncing between rural states like North Dakota and West Texas as his father, a doctor on an H1B visa, took jobs where domestic talent was scarce. A high school debate star—complete with a “chiseled chin” and concise extemp speeches—Patel initially saw himself heading toward a startup career, dabbling in ideas like furniture resale and a philosophy-inspired forum called PopperPlay (a name he later realized had unintended connotations). But it was podcasting that took off, transforming from a gap-year experiment into a full-fledged calling.

    Patel’s optimism about AI shines through in the conversation. He envisions a future where AI eliminates scarcity, not just of material goods but of experiences—think aesthetics, peak human moments, and interstellar exploration. “I’m a transhumanist,” he admitted, advocating for a world where humanity integrates with AI to unlock vast potential. He predicts AI task horizons doubling every seven months, potentially leading to “discontinuous” economic impacts within 18 months if models master computer use and reinforcement learning (RL) environments. Yet he remains skeptical of a “software-only singularity,” arguing that physical bottlenecks—like chip manufacturing—will temper the pace of progress, requiring a broader tech stack upgrade akin to building an iPhone in 1900.

    On the race to artificial general intelligence (AGI), Patel questions whether the first lab to get there will dominate indefinitely. He points to fast-follow dynamics—where breakthroughs are quickly replicated at lower cost—and the coalescing approaches of labs like xAI, OpenAI, and Anthropic. “The cost of training these models is declining like 10x a year,” he noted, suggesting a future where AGI becomes commodified rather than monopolized. He’s cautiously optimistic about safety, too, estimating a 10-20% “P(doom)” (probability of catastrophic outcomes) but arguing that current lab leaders are far better than alternatives like unchecked nationalized efforts or a reckless trillion-dollar GPU hoard.

    Patel’s influences—like economist Tyler Cowen, who mentored him early on—and unexpected podcast hits—like military historian Sarah Paine—round out the episode. Paine, a Naval War College scholar whose episodes with Patel have exploded in popularity, exemplifies his knack for spotlighting overlooked brilliance. “You really don’t know what’s going to be popular,” he mused, advocating for following personal curiosity over chasing trends.

    Looking ahead, Patel aims to make his podcast the go-to place for understanding the AI-driven “explosive growth” he sees coming. Writing, though a struggle, will play a bigger role as he refines his takes. “I want it to become the place where… you come to make sense of what’s going on,” he said. In a world often dominated by shallow content, Patel’s commitment to depth and learning stands out—a beacon for those who’d rather grapple with big ideas than scroll through 30-second blips.