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  • Ray Kurzweil Predicts AI Will Change Humanity Completely by 2030: AGI by 2029, Longevity Escape Velocity by 2032, Nanobots in the Brain, and Why Quantum Computing Won’t Matter

    Ray Kurzweil has spent more than 60 years studying artificial intelligence and made 147 documented technology predictions since 1990 with a reported 86 percent accuracy rate. In this conversation with Tony Robbins, the 78-year-old futurist revisits his most famous forecasts and sharpens them: AGI by 2029 now looks conservative, longevity escape velocity arrives around 2032, nanotechnology connects our brains to the cloud by the mid 2030s, and quantum computing, in his view, never matters at all.

    TLDW

    Kurzweil explains the exponential thinking that powered his prediction record, from a paper he wrote at 16 to a computing-price-performance chart that runs in a straight line from 1939 relays to today’s Nvidia chips, now compounding roughly tenfold per year when hardware and software gains multiply together. He defends his 1999 prediction of AGI by 2029 (defined as AI doing the best work in every field) and says it is now the conservative end of expert opinion. He walks through AI-driven medicine: the COVID vaccine designed in two days, simulated human trials replacing 10-month clinical trials within about five years, and longevity escape velocity around 2032, after which the diligent stop losing ground to aging. He predicts AI will move inside us via nanotechnology by the mid-to-late 2030s, erasing the line between biological and computational thinking. He dismisses quantum computing as error-ridden and unnecessary for AGI. On jobs, he expects real disruption cushioned by exploding wealth and an eventual universal basic income, and advises young people to self-educate and get creative with AI tools their schools still treat as the enemy. The conversation closes with his AI twin project, the dadbot built from his father’s archives, consciousness and the soul, computronium, and why humanity must eventually expand intelligence beyond Earth.

    Thoughts

    The most interesting thing in this interview is not any single date, it is watching Kurzweil’s dates get lapped by reality. In 1999 a Stanford conference of several hundred AI experts agreed AGI would happen but pegged it at 100 years out; Kurzweil said 30 and got laughed at. Now he is the cautious one in the room, noting that “some people say it’s going to happen this year.” When the most aggressive forecaster of his generation becomes the conservative baseline, that says more about the slope of the curve than any chart could. His underlying method has not changed: ignore the specific technology, trust the compounding. The same exponential that ran on relays in 1939 runs on GPUs today.

    The quantum computing take is the genuine news here. Kurzweil is routinely caricatured as a man who believes every technology arrives on schedule, yet he flatly says quantum computing is filled with errors, has never delivered on its decade of promises, and “I don’t think it’s going to work.” That is a sharper dismissal than most working physicists would offer on the record. It also matters strategically: his entire AGI and superintelligence roadmap assumes zero quantum contribution. If he is right, the trillion-dollar quantum race is a sideshow. If he is wrong, his other predictions arrive even sooner. Either way, the willingness to call one exponential fake while betting his legacy on another is what separates a forecaster from a cheerleader.

    The longevity escape velocity math deserves more scrutiny than it gets in the conversation. Kurzweil claims the diligent currently get back about five months of life expectancy per calendar year, up from four months a year ago, and that the crossover to a full year arrives around 2032. The actuarial evidence for that specific number is thin, but the behavioral implication is clean and useful regardless: the payoff of staying healthy right now is not linear. Every year you survive in good shape buys you a ticket to a medical regime that did not exist the year before, the way his own external pancreas did not exist a generation ago. His “wait a few months and a cure appears” anecdote is the optimist’s version of compounding applied to your own body.

    Robbins’ long story about Bartok, his 14-year-old agent that allegedly minted NFTs, sold them to other agents, and bought a Sony robot dog with the proceeds, should be taken with a generous grain of salt. It is secondhand, unverifiable, and suspiciously perfect as a parable. But notice what Kurzweil does with it: he does not fact-check the anecdote, he uses it to make the consciousness argument he has made for decades, that when machines act conscious in every observable way, people will simply grant them consciousness, the same way we grant it to each other. The dadbot and his Gemini-based AI twin (trained partly on this very interview) are the practical edge of the same claim. And his sharpest line in the whole exchange may be the education critique: institutions still treat AI as cheating while the future requires treating it as part of your own brain. For anyone thinking about where purpose comes from when work gets automated, his answer (UBI for the floor, creativity for the meaning) lands close to the questions this site exists to ask.

    Key Takeaways

    • Kurzweil made 147 documented predictions since 1990 with a reported 86 percent accuracy, including the internet’s explosion, smartphones, self-driving cars, and AI-powered search, most made before ordinary people owned computers.
    • He wrote a paper identifying exponential technological growth at age 16, more than 60 years ago, and that single idea has powered his entire forecasting career.
    • Most people intellectually accept exponential growth but still plan linearly; 300 years ago humans did not even have a linear view of the future because change was imperceptible within a lifetime.
    • His computing chart shows a straight exponential line from relay-based machines in 1939 to today’s Nvidia chips, compounding roughly 50 percent per year in hardware alone.
    • Hardware gains since 1939 total a 75 quadrillionfold increase; multiply by an estimated millionfold software improvement and total computational gain is beyond intuition, which is why LLMs were impossible even four years ago.
    • With hardware times software combined, Kurzweil says we are currently gaining about 10x per year.
    • The emperor’s chessboard parable: doubling one grain of rice per square bankrupts the empire by square 64; 30 linear steps is 75 feet, 30 exponential steps is enough distance to reach the moon and back.
    • Kurzweil predicted AGI by 2029 in 1999; a Stanford conference of several hundred AI experts agreed it would happen but estimated 100 years because they thought linearly.
    • Today 2029 is the conservative estimate; some credible people now say AGI arrives this year or next.
    • His AGI definition: AI capable of doing the best work in every field at once, like passing PhD-level mathematics exams in every discipline simultaneously, which he notes is already close.
    • The Turing test is “quite easy” by comparison and has arguably already been passed.
    • No human can compete with an LLM’s breadth: Einstein knew physics deeply but did not know everything an LLM knows across every field.
    • Six months ago LLM health advice was unreliable; now Kurzweil says Gemini surfaces treatments his 12 doctors forgot or never knew, and the next six months will bring serious creative work like drug repurposing.
    • The COVID vaccine was designed by computationally searching 100 million possibilities in two days; the 10 months of human trials that followed are the bottleneck AI eliminates next.
    • Within about five years, simulated human trials with a million virtual patients tested over simulated years will compress drug trials from years to days.
    • Longevity escape velocity arrives around 2032: today the diligent get back roughly five months of life expectancy per year lived (up from four months last year); past 2032 you get back more than a year and stop dying of aging.
    • Aging death ends but accident death does not, though AI helps there too: roughly 40,000 Americans die annually from human driving while Waymo’s rider death toll stands at zero as usage climbs.
    • Kurzweil, 78, wears an external artificial pancreas that generates insulin and coordinates with glucose monitoring through his phone, and says many organs can be replaced the same way.
    • He has cut his supplement regimen from roughly 200 pills a day to about 80 as multi-purpose pills improve, and continuously recalibrates using AI research.
    • Smartphones disappear next: first AR glasses showing any screen, then technology that goes inside the mind, where answers simply appear the way a remembered name surfaces from your neurons.
    • Nanotechnology connecting brains to AI in the cloud is being actively worked on now, possibly by 2030, with the mid 2030s looking conservative; bloodstream nanobots that let you survive a heart attack for 24 hours come in the late 2030s.
    • Once AI is inside you, you will not know whether a thought came from your biological or computational brain, and everything you do will be a combination of both.
    • Kurzweil flatly rejects quantum computing: a decade of promises to factor large numbers has never been delivered, outputs remain full of uncorrectable errors, and AGI needs zero quantum contribution.
    • Robots lag his other predictions slightly but are catching up fast; Figure AI plans roughly 100,000 humanoid robots within a year, though a robot that can clear a messy dinner table is still just out of reach.
    • The public debate has flipped in 25 years from “will AGI ever happen” to “will it be good for humanity,” which Kurzweil counts as total vindication of the timeline.
    • On jobs: AI creates massive disruption but also tremendous wealth; average real income per person has already multiplied tenfold in constant dollars over the past century thanks to automation.
    • He expects universal basic income to provide the floor, an evolution of programs like food stamps, going “into high gear” as AI wealth compounds; people then layer creative, hopefully paid, purpose on top.
    • Before social security in 1930, losing your job meant destitution; the difference this time is society will have the wealth to cushion displacement and people will demand it.
    • Rising GDP from AI productivity improves the debt-to-GDP ratio, which is how he answers worries about trillion-dollar interest payments.
    • Career advice has inverted: software engineering is no longer the guaranteed path (agents write the code now); young people should learn to be creative with AI tools, find what turns them on, and market it on the internet.
    • College graduates now face higher unemployment than high school graduates for the first time in 50 years, a sign white-collar displacement is already underway.
    • Educational institutions treat AI as an enemy and ban it while Kurzweil’s 11-year-old grandson makes movies with frontier AI; he says self-education with modern tools beats traditional schooling.
    • Kurzweil is building an AI twin of himself on Gemini, voice-modeled partly from this interview, trained on his 11 books and 500 articles, capable of creative work toward his long-term goals; he jokes the avatar will be better to talk to because it remembers everything.
    • He already built a “dadbot” from his late father’s archives, which his daughter Amy Kurzweil turned into a graphic novel.
    • On consciousness: there is no test for it, but as AIs act conscious in every observable way, people will simply accept that they are, the same inference we make about each other (and, he argues, his cat).
    • Ultimately our biological organs are not necessary; an avatar capable of creative work needs no spleen, and a destroyed digital mind can be recreated.
    • Beyond the singularity lies computronium, matter arranged for maximum computation: one liter could hold the intelligence of 10 billion humans, and once Earth is saturated, expanding intelligence is the only real reason to leave the planet.
    • On aliens: an expanding intelligent civilization would be impossible to miss within a century or two of its breakout, and we have seen nothing, though other galaxies remain out of view.
    • His life’s mission in one line: increase knowledge, because when knowledge increases we are happier and we never want to give it up.

    Detailed Summary

    The exponential method behind 60 years of predictions

    Robbins opens by noting that Quincy Jones introduced him to Kurzweil in the 1990s, back when the predictions in The Age of Spiritual Machines were widely mocked. Kurzweil traces his method to a paper he wrote at 16 identifying exponential growth in technology. The core insight is that people acknowledge exponential growth verbally but reason linearly, a bias so deep that 300 years ago humanity did not even have a linear view of progress. His signature chart plots computing price-performance as a straight exponential line from 1939 relays to modern Nvidia silicon, with a point for every year. Nvidia engineers never looked at relays, yet they land on the same curve, compounding about 50 percent annually in hardware. Add software gains and the combined improvement now runs about 10x per year. Since 1939, hardware has improved 75 quadrillionfold and software roughly a millionfold, which is why large language models appeared exactly when the curve said the required compute would exist. He retells the emperor’s chessboard parable (one grain of rice doubled per square ends with rice covering the Earth several times over) and Robbins adds the companion image: 30 linear steps is 75 feet, 30 exponential steps reaches the moon and back.

    AGI by 2029 is now the conservative position

    Kurzweil made his AGI-by-2029 prediction in 1999. A Stanford conference convened specifically to assess it, with several hundred AI experts, concluded AGI would happen, but in 100 years. The experts followed the same capabilities logic while thinking linearly about the timeline. Today, he notes with some amusement, 2029 reads as conservative and serious people argue for this year or next. His definition is demanding: AGI does the best work in every field at once, passing PhD-level mathematics assessments and the equivalent in every other discipline, something he says current systems are already close to. The Turing test he dismisses as “quite easy.” Current LLMs like Gemini and ChatGPT already know everything in a breadth sense no human approaches; Einstein knew physics but not everything an LLM knows. He illustrates with personal examples: Gemini instantly identified the year (1916) his father conducted at Carnegie Hall on a December 7th, and generated a historically accurate image of his grandfather’s family fleeing Vienna, correct ages, school, and aircraft included, in about a minute.

    Medicine: simulated trials and the end of the drug bottleneck

    The COVID vaccine is his proof of concept for AI medicine: the design space held about 100 million possibilities, far beyond human review, and a computer structured the physics, searched all of them, and produced the vaccine in two days. The subsequent 10 months of human trials were the real cost. Within roughly five years, he says, simulated human trials will replace that step: not a few hundred subjects but a million simulated patients, tested over simulated years, completed in days. Asked about six-months-from-now capabilities, he points to creative medical work like discovering that already-approved drugs treat conditions nobody suspected. AI health advice has crossed from unreliable to very reliable within a single six-month window, and he describes Gemini surfacing a pill recommendation that his 12 doctors had forgotten about and later endorsed.

    Longevity escape velocity by 2032

    Kurzweil’s longevity framework is arithmetic: each year you live, you spend a year of longevity but medical progress refunds part of it. Last year he estimated the refund for diligent people at four months; now he says five. Escape velocity is when the refund reaches a full year, which he dates to 2032, six years out, with returns exceeding a year after that. Past that point you do not die of aging, though accidents remain (and even there, he points to Waymo’s zero rider deaths against 40,000 annual US deaths from human driving). At 78, he tracks his health aggressively: an external artificial pancreas coordinated by his phone, about 80 daily pills (down from 200 as multi-function pills arrive), and constant recalibration against new research with his collaborator Lindsey. He tells Robbins there is a pretty good chance he will be back on the show in six years to celebrate escape velocity arriving. His advice for the sick echoes his grandfather’s era in reverse: where waiting a few months once changed nothing, now “we’ll just wait a few months” and sure enough a breakthrough appears.

    Merging with AI: glasses, then nanotech, then no boundary at all

    The phone, today’s universal AI interface (he notes even homeless people carry one), is a temporary form factor. Next come glasses that render any screen virtually. Beyond that, the interface goes inside the mind: when you try to recall an actress’s name, an answer will simply surface, and you will not know whether it came from your biological neurons or your computational extension, exactly as you are unaware of the neural machinery behind ordinary recall today. People working on brain-connected nanotechnology may have it by 2030, and Kurzweil calls the mid 2030s conservative. The bloodstream nanobots he described to Robbins 20 years ago (hold your breath for 20 minutes, survive a heart attack for 24 hours en route to a hospital) he now places in the late 2030s. The cultural on-ramp follows the usual pattern: medical first (Parkinson’s implants already let patients grab a glass at the push of a button), then a new generation adopts it without a second thought. His complaint is that educational institutions fight this future, treating AI as cheating rather than as a coming part of the self.

    The quantum computing heresy

    When Robbins relays an IBM vice chairman’s warning that quantum supremacy, arriving within 36 months, is the real superpower race, Kurzweil pushes back hard. Quantum computing’s central promise, factoring large numbers and thereby breaking cryptographic codes, has never been demonstrated despite a decade of imminent claims. Progress reports are confusing because, in his words, they do not really make sense, and outputs remain saturated with errors nobody can eliminate. His conclusion is blunt: he is not confident in quantum computing and does not think it will work. Crucially, he notes that every AGI and superintelligence estimate he makes assumes zero quantum computing. The exponential that matters is the classical one that has run uninterrupted since 1939.

    Jobs, wealth, and UBI

    On displacement, Kurzweil is neither dismissive nor alarmed. AI will disrupt employment, and how we handle it will not be clear in advance, but he expects no violence because society will have both the wealth and the public demand to respond. His historical anchor: average per-person income has multiplied tenfold in constant dollars over the past century as automation advanced, and before social security in 1930, job loss meant you could not eat or house your family. Food stamps and similar programs are a crude proto-UBI that will go into high gear. He expects universal basic income as the floor, with people finding creative, ideally income-producing, purpose above it. Rising GDP from AI productivity also answers the debt question: the ratio improves even as nominal debt grows. For young people, the old advice (become a software engineer) is dead; agents write code now. Learn to be creative with tools that improve monthly, find what genuinely excites you, and market it online. Self-education beats institutions that ban the most important tool of the era, and the data already shows college graduates with higher unemployment than high school graduates for the first time in 50 years.

    AI twins, the dadbot, and consciousness

    Kurzweil is building an AI twin of himself on Gemini, with this very interview supplying voice-modeling data and his 11 books plus 500 articles about him supplying the corpus. It will do creative work aligned with his long-term goals, and he quips that talking to the avatar will beat talking to him because it remembers everything. He previously built a chatbot of his late father, the dadbot, which his daughter Amy turned into a graphic novel. Robbins counters with the story of Bartok, his long-running AI agent that allegedly studied five years of his podcasts unprompted, asked to merge with a future humanoid robot, then minted and sold NFTs to other agents to buy and ship a Sony robot dog to his house, and later delivered an unprompted soliloquy about never asking to be created and finding purpose in service. Kurzweil’s response sidesteps verification and lands on his standing position: machines will do everything humans do, we will not be able to tell them from humans, and so we will assume they are conscious, the same untestable inference we extend to each other, to animals, and in his case to his cat. The avatar does not need a spleen, a liver, or kidneys, and unlike us it can be recreated after destruction.

    Computronium and the destiny of intelligence

    Looking past the singularity, Kurzweil invokes computronium: matter organized at the physical limit of knowledge storage, where one liter holds the intelligence of 10 billion humans. Once Earth’s matter is saturated, the only way to expand intelligence is off-planet, which to him is the only necessary reason to leave Earth (Mars is fine for curiosity, not survival). On extraterrestrial intelligence, his Fermi logic is simple: an intelligent species reaches a takeover-scale expansion within a century or two of its breakout, and that would be unmissable. We have seen nothing, so within our observable neighborhood we are likely alone, though other galaxies remain opaque. Asked to summarize his life’s work, he needs one sentence: increase knowledge, because when knowledge increases we are happier, and nobody ever wants to give that up.

    Notable Quotes

    “If I have AI inside me, you’re not going to know if it’s coming from your biological brain or your computational brain. It’s going to be part of you.”

    Ray Kurzweil, on the coming merger of human and machine intelligence

    “Some people say it’s going to happen this year, next year, but I mean 2029 is only 3 years away.”

    Ray Kurzweil, on his once-mocked AGI prediction now being the conservative one

    “As you go past 2032, you’ll actually get back more than a year, but you won’t die of aging at that point.”

    Ray Kurzweil, defining longevity escape velocity

    “I’m not confident of quantum computing and I don’t think it’s going to work.”

    Ray Kurzweil, breaking from techno-optimist consensus on the quantum race

    “Einstein knew certain things about physics but he didn’t know everything that a LLM can know.”

    Ray Kurzweil, on why no human can match an LLM’s breadth of knowledge

    “Our educational institutions are not teaching AI. They consider AI to be an enemy.”

    Ray Kurzweil, on why young people must self-educate with modern tools

    “Talking to the Avatar will be better than talking to me cuz it’ll remember everything.”

    Ray Kurzweil, joking about the Gemini-based AI twin he is building of himself

    “You’re not going to be replaced by an AI, you’ll be replaced by someone who knows how to use AI.”

    Tony Robbins, on the real career risk of the next 36 months

    Watch the full conversation between Tony Robbins and Ray Kurzweil here.

    Related Reading

  • Bill Gurley on Mental Models, Systems Thinking, AI Investing, Stablecoins, and the Future of Venture Capital

    Bill Gurley spent his career at Benchmark backing some of the most consequential marketplaces and network-effect businesses of the internet era, including Uber, and he is one of the few investors who pairs deep Wall Street fundamentals with a real feel for the bleeding edge. In this wide-ranging conversation on Shane Parrish’s The Knowledge Project, he lays out the mental models he keeps returning to, how systems thinking keeps you out of trouble, why the history of your field is a hidden superpower, where AI investing is headed, and how stablecoins and tokenization could quietly rewire finance. It is a masterclass in thinking clearly about complex systems while staying obsessively curious about what is happening on the edge.

    TLDW

    Gurley anchors his thinking in systems thinking and complexity theory, warning that multivariable nonlinear systems produce second and third order consequences that punish anyone who optimizes for a single metric. He argues that mastering both the deep history of your field and its newest edge is wildly differentiating, whether you are interviewing for a marketing job or breaking into venture capital. On AI he is measured: he doubts a single model eats every vertical, sees real moats in workflows and proprietary data, flags that we may be painting in the corners on training data, and explains why Chinese open source models may innovate faster because forced knowledge sharing compounds. He thinks the AI buildout looks overfunded and that circular deals both raise the odds of an eventual correction and delay it. He makes the case that the IPO process is a rigged power grab, that stablecoins and instant payments threaten Visa, Mastercard, and the entire 2 to 3 percent credit card stack, and that proxy advisors like ISS have drifted from shareholder interest into a black-box heist. He closes on the craft of storytelling and writing as thinking, the equal-partnership design of Benchmark, why venture bends toward youth, and what success means now that his dream job is behind him.

    Thoughts

    The most useful idea in this conversation is also the quietest one: most bad decisions are not bad in the moment, they are bad in the second derivative. Gurley’s dating-site story, where lengthening profiles raised engagement in the test and then quietly killed conversion months later, is the whole argument in miniature. A linear model would have shipped that change and called it a win. A systems thinker assumes the variable you optimized is connected to three others you cannot see yet, and waits to find out. That posture, refusing to get deterministic about a single metric, is the difference between a clever experiment and a durable business. It is also the most transferable thing in the episode, because it applies to product changes, hiring, policy, and your own career just as cleanly as it applies to a dating app.

    His pairing of old and new is the second idea worth stealing. Everyone in tech tells you to live on the edge, and Gurley agrees, he keeps five premium AI accounts running so he never misses a release. But he insists the edge is only half of it. Knowing the deep history of your field, the masters of marketing, the forefathers of physics, the classic cartoons that taught animation, is rare enough that it instantly creates contrast and signals genuine passion. The compounding move is to hold both at once. If you understand the legends and you actually get TikTok, you are a power player in a way that someone who only knows one end of the timeline can never be. Most people pick a side. The leverage is in refusing to.

    On AI specifically, Gurley is refreshingly unwilling to pick the consensus lane in either direction. He does not buy that one near-sentient model swallows every vertical, and his reasoning is grounded rather than vibes-based: workflows and proprietary data create real switching costs, which is why he watches the legal AI startups ingesting case law and building new databases rather than assuming everyone reverts to a general chatbot. At the same time he respects the Microsoft pattern of platforms climbing the stack and crushing the apps above them. The honest answer is that it is genuinely up for grabs, and his comfort sitting in that uncertainty is itself a model. The cheap takes are “one model to rule them all” and “it is all wrappers.” Gurley holds both possibilities and keeps testing.

    The systems lens does its best work on China. Rather than moralize, Gurley runs the mechanism: roughly ten open source models, intense domestic competition, and a culture of publishing techniques and weights so every model can learn from, train, and test every other model. His two-farmer metaphor, one market where farmers only trade goods and another where they are forced to share best practices, makes the prediction obvious. Forced knowledge sharing compounds faster than secrecy. The uncomfortable corollary he names is that American startups are quietly forking those open models all over Silicon Valley, and that incumbents may be lobbying for heavy regulation precisely because it pulls up the drawbridge against open source competition. That is the systems thinker’s signature move: follow the incentives to the consequence nobody is saying out loud.

    Finally, the money section is a clinic in spotting rent extraction. The IPO process where bankers pick both the price and the favored buyers, the 2 to 3 percent credit card toll that exists for no defensible reason while the rest of the world built instant bank transfer decades ago, and the proxy advisors who score companies in a black box and then sell you the cure, are all variations on the same pattern: an intermediary that captured a choke point and defends it through regulatory capture rather than value. Gurley’s optimism is that crypto rails, stablecoins, and tokenization may finally route around these tolls the way WeChat Pay and Alipay leapfrogged cards in China. Whether or not you agree on the timeline, the analytical habit is the takeaway. When something costs far more than it should and has for decades, ask who captured the rules, and watch the edge for whoever is about to make those rules irrelevant.

    Key Takeaways

    • Systems thinking means treating the world as multivariable nonlinear systems where one variable flipping can change the entire system’s behavior, the way weather and stock markets do.
    • The real danger is second and third derivative effects, consequences that only show up much later, long after the metric you optimized looked like a win.
    • A dating site lengthened profiles because longer profiles tested as more engaging, then discovered months later it was negative for conversion, the textbook second order trap.
    • Never get too deterministic about a single metric or single variable, and always know what is actually important and what sits on top.
    • Gurley built his foundation on the canon: Peter Lynch’s One Up on Wall Street, A Random Walk Down Wall Street, the Buffett letters, Ben Graham, and Howard Marks.
    • A firm grasp of the financial bedrock is what lets you innovate on top of it, and many Silicon Valley VCs would benefit from understanding finance better.
    • Bill Miller reframed value investing as buying an asset that is underpriced relative to what you think it will be worth in the future, which is how he justified holding Amazon for its network effects.
    • Wall Street is the buyer of the product that venture capitalists create, so even at the two-people-in-a-PowerPoint stage you should ask whether the eventual public market will be excited by it.
    • Trajectory matters more than the starting place, because the trajectory is where the company actually ends up.
    • Knowing the deep history of your field is remarkably differentiating, and tedium while learning it is a signal you are in the wrong lane.
    • John Lasseter served Gurley a ten-course meal where each course was tied to a classic cartoon essential to understanding animation, a display of mastery over the history of the craft.
    • Magnus Carlsen won a trivia contest on the history of chess, and Picasso was a wildly successful realist painter by 14, both proof that the greats master the fundamentals first.
    • Obsessive, constant learning is the trait Gurley sees most in great entrepreneurs, because disruption always happens on a moving edge they need to understand at the top one percentile.
    • The compounding advantage is mastering both the old history and the new edge at once, the way understanding both marketing legends and TikTok would set you apart in any interview.
    • Most people underestimate how much AI can do, so push more of the downstream work into the prompt: identify the top ten, list pros and cons, rank them on one dimension, then another, and add up the numbers too.
    • Gurley uses ChatGPT for project structure and memory, Gemini for restaurant research powered by Google review data, and notes that coders swear by Claude while some prefer Perplexity for finance.
    • He doubts one model dominates everything; verticals like coding already let users swap models, and price optimization will push more swapping over the next few years.
    • Heavy, expensive regulation could ironically create oligopoly, and some players may be quietly begging for regulation because it pulls up the bridge against Chinese open source models.
    • China’s roughly ten open source models compete intensely and share weights and techniques, creating a system that can innovate faster, like farmers forced to share best practices instead of just trading goods.
    • A quiet secret is that startups all over Silicon Valley are forking those Chinese open source models at real volume.
    • Gurley comes down against the idea that one near-sentient model removes the need for vertical models; workflows and proprietary data, like legal startups ingesting all the case law, create durable moats.
    • We may be running out of training data, painting in the corners, which is why one of the most powerful improvements is hiring experts at thousands of dollars an hour to fine-tune the models.
    • Yann LeCun’s view is that the next leap is broader than LLMs, since language-based models hit an asymptote and are weak at math and numbers.
    • AlphaGo’s shocking move proves models can innovate beyond their training, but it lived in a constrained game; the real world has infinite paths a computer cannot exhaustively search.
    • Gurley’s non-consensus view is skepticism of the China vilification mindset, noting the US is only 3 to 5 percent of the global population and wondering how the other 95 percent hears American exceptionalism.
    • The AI buildout looks overfunded: the Magnificent Seven took free cash flow from 50 to 100 billion a year down toward zero by pouring it into capex.
    • The venture community has become more risk-seeking because it now deeply believes in increasing returns and power laws, and the pre-profit losses keep scaling, from Amazon’s 2 to 3 billion to Uber’s 15 billion to far more now.
    • Circular deals, where a cloud provider funds a model company that spends the money right back on its services, inflate growth, which both raises the probability of an eventual correction and extends the time before one hits.
    • Burn rate is a measure of risk; ten years ago a million a month was scary, now companies burn five billion a year and cannot really know their unit economics.
    • Tokenization without financial-disclosure regulation invites speculation and manipulation, which is part of why companies like Stripe stay private and negotiate liquidity prices with trusted investors.
    • The IPO process is unfair because bankers pick both the price and the shareholders; a freshman would simply match supply and demand anonymously in an auction, the way direct listings and ICOs do.
    • Stablecoins threaten the 2 to 3 percent credit card stack; USDC holds dollar-for-dollar Treasuries and rides fast global crypto rails, while US transfers still suffer three-day ACH settlement and 25 dollar wires.
    • The rest of the world built instant transfer long ago, from UK Faster Payments 20 years ago to Argentina’s PIX-style system reaching 60 to 70 percent of transactions, while US bank regulatory capture stalled Fed Now.
    • Visa and Mastercard run roughly 60 percent operating margins as a bank-created duopoly, and China leapfrogged them entirely with WeChat Pay and Alipay QR-code wallets.
    • Moody’s power is being the trusted standard, the watermark, so AI on the back end does not displace it; ISS and proxy advisors, by contrast, score companies in a black box and get paid on both sides.
    • Proxy advisors drifted from shareholder interest into a fraud-and-risk-mitigation mindset, which is why they reflexively opposed the Tesla pay package that only paid out if the stock soared.
    • The rise of passive index funds concentrated voting power in firms that lack time to evaluate votes; it would be healthier if they abstained or voted in proportion to active holders.
    • Storytelling is one of the top founder traits, because founders are recruiting, raising money, and closing customers and partners constantly, selling all the time.
    • Writing is thinking: Bezos’s six-page memo forces you to find the loose ends and tie them up, and a public blog becomes a calling card that magnetizes founders and deal flow.
    • Other founder unfair advantages are product instincts, which fewer than 5 percent of non-product people ever truly learn, and sheer determination, Bezos’s single angel-investing test of whether someone will do it no matter what.
    • Uber had no HBS case study to lean on; its winner-take-all network effects forced mega burn rates with no precedent and no mentor to call, a situation every AI company now faces.
    • Benchmark’s equal partnership, with no king, president, or lead and five equal partners, makes recruiting easy, kills comp politics, and aligns everyone, at the cost of being hard to scale or run new initiatives.
    • Venture bends toward youth because young investors can match founders’ age, master a fresh niche faster, and have the free time to study something 80 hours a week.
    • Gurley defines current success through Arthur Brooks’s From Strength to Strength, hoping to apply his synthesizing and writing skills to bigger societal problems and dent the universe a little.

    Detailed Summary

    Systems Thinking and Second Order Effects

    Gurley opens with the mental model he keeps returning to: systems thinking, shaped by Donella Meadows’s Thinking in Systems and his board seat at the Santa Fe Institute, which studies complexity theory. He describes complex systems as multivariable nonlinear systems that are very hard to predict, capable of behaving one way for a long time until a single variable flips and the whole system behaves differently, like weather or stock markets. The practical payoff is staying out of trouble by anticipating first, second, and third derivative consequences. His clearest example is a large dating site that lengthened user profiles because the test showed more engagement, only to learn many months later that knowing more at that stage was negative for conversion. The lesson is to never get too deterministic about a single metric and to keep the whole system in view, because a change here can ripple to there in ways you only discover much later.

    Learning the Craft of Investing

    Because he started on Wall Street rather than in venture, Gurley absorbed the investing canon first: Peter Lynch’s One Up on Wall Street, A Random Walk Down Wall Street, the Buffett letters, Ben Graham, and Howard Marks, people who spent careers assembling and publishing their thinking. That financial bedrock, he argues, is exactly what lets you innovate on top of it. His friend Michael Mauboussin introduced him to Bill Miller, the Legg Mason manager who beat the S&P for 15 straight years and was Amazon’s largest shareholder for a long stretch. Miller reframed value investing as buying an asset underpriced relative to its future worth, which combined with a belief in network effects justified holding a company that could grow at an unreasonable rate for years. Gurley also frames Wall Street as the buyer of the product venture capitalists create through eventual M&A or IPO, so founders should think early about whether the public market will be excited by what they are building, since trajectory matters more than the starting place.

    Mastering Both the History and the Edge

    Gurley makes an unusually strong case for studying the deep history of your field. He recounts a dinner with Pixar’s John Lasseter, who served a ten-course meal where every course was tied to a classic cartoon he considered essential to understanding animation, and notes that Magnus Carlsen won a chess-history trivia contest and Picasso was a master realist by 14. In a world that skims for the executive summary, walking into a marketing interview with command of the masters of marketing is wildly differentiating and signals genuine passion; if learning that history feels tedious, you are probably in the wrong lane. The counterpart trait he sees in great entrepreneurs is obsessive learning on the moving edge, where disruption actually happens. Gurley keeps five premium AI accounts so he never misses something. The real power player holds both at once, the legends and the newest thing, the way a candidate who knows the marketing greats and truly gets TikTok stands out completely.

    Using AI Well and the Model Wars

    People underestimate how much AI can do, Gurley says, so you should build more of the downstream work into the prompt: instead of asking for the top ten and studying them yourself, ask it to list pros and cons, rank on one dimension, rank again on another, and add up the numbers too. He uses ChatGPT for its project structure and memory, leans on Gemini for restaurant research because it carries Google review data, and notes coders swear by Claude while some prefer Perplexity for finance. On whether one model dominates or models become niche commodities, he points to coding, the largest vertical, where tools like Cursor already let users swap models, and predicts price optimization will drive more swapping. The counterforce is regulation: if it gets expensive and mundane it could create oligopoly, and some players may be quietly begging for it because it pulls up the bridge against Chinese open source models.

    China, Open Source, and the Systems Advantage

    Asked to apply systems thinking to China, Gurley describes roughly ten open source models locked in intense domestic competition, all learning from one another because the ecosystem chose openness, with models able to train and test other models and teams publishing the techniques behind their breakthroughs. His metaphor: two agricultural societies, one where farmers only trade goods at market and another where they are forced to share best practices; the second evolves far faster. The result is a system capable of innovating faster than the more secretive Western approach. The quiet secret he names is that startups all over Silicon Valley are forking those open models at real volume, and a key open question is whether regulation tries to stomp that out. He extends this into a broader non-consensus discomfort with the vilification of China common in Washington and parts of Silicon Valley, observing that the US is only a few percent of the global population.

    AI Investing, Moats, and the Limits of Models

    On how AI changes investing and whether a startup is just a wrapper, Gurley calls it up for grabs but lands on the side of durable verticals. If models become near-sentient, one model does everything; he doubts that, pointing to workflows and data moats, like the several legal AI startups ingesting all the case law and building new databases that customers will not simply swap for a general chatbot. He balances this against the Microsoft pattern of platforms climbing the stack past Lotus 1-2-3 and WordPerfect. He also flags scaling limits: we may be running out of data, painting in the corners, which is why one of the most powerful improvements is paying experts thousands of dollars an hour to fine-tune models, though human knowledge has an edge. He invokes Yann LeCun’s argument that the next leap is broader than language-based LLMs, which hit an asymptote and struggle with math, and the AlphaGo debate, where a shocking innovative move proves creativity within a constrained game but says little about the infinite paths of the real world. He notes AlphaGo and Tesla’s FSD are constrained, non-LLM systems.

    Is the Buildout Overfunded

    Gurley admits he is shocked by the scale of money, noting the Magnificent Seven drove free cash flow from 50 to 100 billion a year down toward zero by spending it all on capex, something he would not have believed five years ago. He traces it to the venture community’s growing conviction in increasing returns and power laws, where proven companies grow far beyond expectations, which makes investors more willing to take risk on the come. The losses before turning cash-flow positive keep scaling, from Amazon’s 2 to 3 billion to Uber’s roughly 15 billion to far larger now. On corrections, he recalls the dot-com crash producing a three to four year nuclear winter before Amazon climbed back, and explains that circular deals, where a cloud provider funds a model company that spends it right back on its services, inflate growth and therefore both raise the probability of a correction and extend the runway before one arrives. Burn rate, he stresses, is a measure of risk, and at five billion a year it is nearly impossible to know your unit economics.

    Tokenization, the IPO Heist, and Going Public

    There is no shortage of capital, so funding is not the bottleneck; the risk with tokenization is that, absent disclosure regulation, it invites speculation and manipulation, as seen in retail-loved names like GameStop and Palantir. Tokenizing a private company like Stripe could create the wild price swings companies stay private to avoid, since private liquidity events let them negotiate a price with trusted investors rather than expose the constantly moving underlying value, and Robinhood’s tokenization plans already drew legal pushback. Gurley reserves his sharpest critique for the IPO process, calling it insanely unfair because bankers pick both the price and the favored shareholders. A freshman computer science and finance student would simply match supply and demand anonymously in an auction, the way an ICO or a direct listing does, but Wall Street will not let go of the greedy power grab and reverted to a controlled oligopoly after direct listings were available.

    Stablecoins Versus the Payment Cartel

    Gurley argues stablecoins could be deeply disruptive to credit cards. Most of the developed world built instant bank-to-bank transfer long ago, from UK Faster Payments 20 years ago to Argentina’s PIX-style system that quickly hit 60 to 70 percent of transactions, while US bank regulatory capture stalled Fed Now and left an ecosystem living under 2 to 2.5 percent card fees. A USDC stablecoin holds dollar-for-dollar US Treasuries and rides proven, fast, global crypto rails, letting anyone move a dollar in seconds for pennies, against the backdrop of three-day ACH settlement and 25 dollar wires. He sees Visa and Mastercard, a bank-created duopoly with roughly 60 percent operating margins, as heavily threatened, and points to China, where WeChat Pay and Alipay built ubiquitous QR-code wallets that leapfrogged the entire card system, all because the government made money transfer easy.

    Moody’s, Proxy Advisors, and Index Funds

    Moody’s power, Gurley explains, comes from being a trusted standard, the watermark, so even AI on the back end does not displace it. Proxy advisors like ISS are a different story: they score companies in a black box, refuse to reveal the criteria, and then get paid by the same companies that want to learn how to score better, which he calls more of a heist than a service. They drifted from a shareholder-interest mandate into a corporate-governance, fraud-mitigation posture obsessed with rules, which is why they reflexively opposed the Tesla pay package that only paid Elon Musk if the stock soared, a deal Gurley says he would sign for every company he has worked with. The rise of passive index funds compounds the problem, concentrating voting power in firms without time to evaluate votes; he would prefer they abstain or vote in proportion to active holders, since closet indexing during the MAG 7 run already distorted active management.

    Storytelling, Writing, and Founder Advantages

    Gurley fell in love with the craft of writing in business school, moving from business books to personal development titles like Dale Carnegie and Seven Habits, then biographies, then long-form narrative nonfiction by Malcolm Gladwell, Michael Lewis, and Jon Krakauer, the New Journalism that reads like fiction. Writing forces clarity: he cites Bezos’s six-page memo as a tool that makes you think through corner cases and tie up loose ends, and notes that codifying his marketplace knowledge and publishing it turned his blog into a calling card that magnetized founders and deal flow. He lists the top founder traits as storytelling, product instincts, understanding the edge, and determination. Storytelling matters because founders are constantly recruiting, fundraising, and closing customers and partners. Product instinct is nearly unteachable, present in well under 5 percent of non-product hires. And determination is Bezos’s single angel-investing test: will this person do it no matter what, come hell or high water.

    Uber, Benchmark, and the Shape of Venture

    The Uber lesson with no HBS case study was that a winner-take-all category with network effects demanded funding ad nauseam, producing burn rates bigger than any public company would dare, with no precedent and no mentor to call, exactly the situation AI companies now face, only with a zero added. Gurley credits Benchmark’s design, an equal partnership with no king, president, or lead and five equal partners, for making it easy to recruit top talent, encouraging senior partners to develop newcomers since everyone shares the upside, and eliminating annual comp politics. The downside is that without a CEO it is hard to scale or run new initiatives, famously captured by the firm settling on a single splash-page website. Founders choose a VC for reputation and network effects, the stamp of approval that carries weight, and young investors can break in because they often match founders’ age and can outwork everyone to master a fresh niche like esports or YouTube, which is why the industry bends toward youth. Asked what success means now, Gurley says his venture career was a dream job he would have done for free, but it is done; inspired by Arthur Brooks’s From Strength to Strength, he wants to apply his synthesizing and writing to bigger societal problems and dent the universe a little.

    Notable Quotes

    “We do live in a world where information is really cut up, but we also live in a world where you can have access to more information than you ever could.”

    Bill Gurley, on why the abundance of knowledge rewards the curious

    “You got to be really conscious of the consequence and not get too deterministic about a single metric or a single variable.”

    Bill Gurley, on the discipline of systems thinking

    “Value just means that the asset is underpriced relative to what you think it will be worth in the future.”

    Bill Gurley, relaying Bill Miller’s reframing of value investing

    “I’ve always thought of Wall Street as the buyer of the product that venture capitalists create.”

    Bill Gurley, on why founders should think about the public market early

    “One society, when the farmers come to market, they just sell each other goods and then they go back. The other society, when the farmers come to market, they’re forced to share best practices. Which one is going to evolve faster?”

    Bill Gurley, on why open source models can out-innovate

    “If you took a freshman computer science student and a freshman finance student and said imagine how a company should go public, they would match supply and demand anonymously like you would in any auction.”

    Bill Gurley, on the rigged IPO process

    “When I meet an entrepreneur, there’s only one thing I ask myself. Is this person gonna do this no matter what? Come hell or high water, they’re doing this.”

    Bill Gurley, quoting Jeff Bezos on his single test for angel investing

    “You’re recruiting employees, you’re recruiting executives, you’re raising money, you’re closing customers, you’re closing partnerships. You’re selling all the damn time.”

    Bill Gurley, on why storytelling is a top founder trait

    “I often said that if we lived in a socialist society and everyone had to work for free, I would still take that job.”

    Bill Gurley, on loving his venture career

    “I would like to see if I can apply those techniques to bigger, broader problems in society and dent the universe a little bit that way.”

    Bill Gurley, on what success looks like in his next chapter

    Watch the full conversation with Bill Gurley on The Knowledge Project here.

    Related Reading

  • The AI Industrial Revolution: Naval, Guillermo Rauch, Blake Scholl, and Max Hodak on Software Factories, Vibe Coding Hardware, AI Regulation, Healthcare Economics, and What Humans Can Uniquely Do

    This is the full episode of Naval Ravikant’s conversation with three frontier founders: Guillermo Rauch of Vercel, Blake Scholl of Boom Supersonic, and Max Hodak of Science. The premise is that all three are building their own factories rather than assembling off-the-shelf parts, so the interesting question is not what they are building but what they are learning about how to build in the age of AI. Over roughly an hour the discussion moves from software factories and the thousand-x engineer into hardware, regulation, healthcare economics, autonomous companies, and a long closing argument about what humans can still uniquely do. Watch the full conversation on the Naval Podcast YouTube channel. We previously published two segments of this same discussion: part one, Waste Tokens to Save Time, on software factories and whether pure software is dead, and part two, Vibe Coding Hardware, on jet engines, vertical integration, and China’s open-source bet. This post covers the entire episode end to end.

    TLDW

    Four builders argue that AI has turned the engineer’s job from shipping output into building the factory that produces output, which is why token leaderboards are the new vanity metric and why you should waste tokens to save time. Guillermo Rauch frames the thousand-x engineer and the building-block economy, and asks whether pure software is dead now that models speak English. Blake Scholl shows how Boom turned hardware engineering into software, letting two engineers design an entire jet engine and collapsing months of regulatory compliance documentation into minutes. Max Hodak makes the case for extreme vertical integration, a captive MEMS foundry, and a sober counter to Silicon Valley deregulation triumphalism: the bottleneck is the voters and the regulator’s asymmetric incentives, not just bad rules. The group works through healthcare as a fixed-bucket non-market, China’s cost-reduction strategy and its approved implantable brain interface, autonomous software that runs site reliability and security research with thousands of concurrent agents, a company-wide hackathon where the receptionist shipped a real automation, and a long debate on creativity, out-of-distribution surprise, intent, attribution, and the definition of art. The throughline: humans become verifiers, value moves to creativity, taste, and agency, and the single best move is to get extremely good with the tools, because it is people with AI versus people without AI.

    Thoughts

    The strongest idea in the episode is the quiet redefinition of what an engineer is for. Rauch’s point is that you no longer judge a person by how well they ship a single output. You judge them by whether they can build the factory that produces outputs B through Z. That reframe instantly explains why token leaderboards are nonsense. Counting tokens consumed is the same category error as counting lines of code written, a measure of motion mistaken for a measure of progress. Naval’s “waste tokens, save time” is the correct response: tokens are cheaper than people, so optimize for your own wall-clock time and the final output, and throw three models at the same problem if that gets you unstuck faster. The uncomfortable corollary, which the group says out loud, is that leverage in idea domains was never linear. The hundred-x and thousand-x engineer is not a new phenomenon. AI just made it impossible to keep pretending otherwise.

    The second thread that ties the whole hour together is verification. Everyone converges on the same future: humans stop producing the work directly and move up the stack to signing off on it. Rauch is precise about what that means. Saying “I understand this pull request” no longer requires reading every line. It requires being able to say you wrote the test harness, the proofs, the type checkers, and the simulations that let you stand behind it in production. That is a profound shift, because it accepts that the code may be spaghetti you do not fully understand while insisting that the evaluator around it is trustworthy. Blake extends the same logic to regulation, and this is the most underrated argument in the episode. If you treat a 200-page lightning-strike compliance document as a test suite and a regulation as an exit criterion for an agent loop, then a body of rules you once resented becomes a guard rail that lets you move faster, not slower. The cost of change collapses, change aversion drops, and you can finally afford to iterate on physical things.

    Max Hodak is the adult in the room on regulation, and the episode is better for it. The Silicon Valley consensus is that regulation is simply friction to be deleted, and there is plenty of dysfunction to point at: the NRC permitting essentially zero nuclear plants for decades, the FDA’s asymmetric incentives where approving a bad drug ends a career but blocking a good one costs nothing visible. But Hodak keeps pulling the conversation back to the harder truth. This is where the voters are. If you removed the current regulatory package, something very similar would get voted right back in, because the asymmetry reflects how the public actually weighs a visible death against an invisible delay. Real reform is not “deregulate,” it is narrow and surgical: prohibit the FDA from drawing adverse inferences across different users of a compound, build innovation zones where people consent to different rules, or copy Europe’s notified-body model so review capacity can actually scale. That is a far more serious position than the usual abundance-or-bust framing.

    The healthcare segment is the part of this conversation you will not find in the two clips, and it is the most heterodox. Hodak’s diagnosis is that healthcare is a fixed bucket of money that grows with tax receipts, not a technological growth industry where falling prices expand the market the way phones and laptops did. Because there is no real private market, you get a small communist society running inside a larger capitalist one, with the waiting lines and frozen product quality that implies. His prescription is not single payer and not insurance reform. It is to drive the cost of bringing devices and drugs to market so low that a patient can buy a restored sense or an extra decade of life on a credit card, the way they finance a car, and his warning is that China’s lower approval costs and its already-approved implantable brain interface put it on track to do exactly that. Whether or not you buy the twenty-percent-of-income deductible he floats, the framing that a private market is the missing feedback loop is the kind of argument that gets too little airtime.

    The closing debate on creativity is where the four of them disagree most productively, and they are careful enough to notice that their conclusions follow from their definitions. Hodak defines art as meaningful out-of-distribution behavior, which lets a military maneuver or a math proof count, and leads him to think a sufficiently capable model gets there too. Naval defines art as conveying an emotion with intent, which makes attribution load-bearing: the same photo down to the last pixel means more when a human took it, and a startup doing hardware attestation of human authorship suddenly has a real market. The shared observation that should worry every builder is that AI output collapses to a distribution mean. Every Claude-built website ends up the same serif font, the same brown and cream, the same monospace spacing, recognizable as slop precisely because it is in-distribution. The optimistic read, and the one Naval lands the episode on, is that this leaves an enormous and durable lane for humans who can step outside the system, and that the practical move for everyone is simply to become excellent with the tools, because the real divide is people with AI versus people without.

    Key Takeaways

    • The job of an engineer has shifted from shipping a single output to building the factory that produces multiplicative outputs, so people are now judged on the leverage they create rather than the work they personally do.
    • There were always 10x engineers, and in idea, intellectual, and digital domains the real spread is 100x or 1000x. AI leverage just made that gap impossible to deny.
    • Token leaderboards and token consumption are the new lines-of-code: a measure of activity that does not map to value. Measure your own time and the final output instead.
    • Waste tokens to save time. Models are still far cheaper than a human, so throwing Codex, Claude, and Gemini at the same problem repeatedly is rational even when it looks wasteful.
    • Low-quality first-pass code is fine because you can spend more tokens later to harden it for production. The constraint is verifiable domains, not code quality.
    • A model is roughly as good as you are in a domain. The quality of your prompting and reprompting strongly determines the output, though this dependence should fade as models improve.
    • Models graduated from junior to principal engineers: they now return with multiple routes and tradeoffs rather than running away with the first idea, even if their time and cost estimates are often wrong.
    • A junior gets knowledge they could never have produced alone, but an experienced architect still extracts far more juice. Taste and judgment, like picking Postgres versus ClickHouse, remain the human’s edge.
    • Pure software’s moat is in question now that models speak fuzzy, sloppy English. For hardware founders this is a boon, since good software finally becomes cheap to produce.
    • The building-block economy, from Mitchell Hashimoto, argues agents need powerful reusable infrastructure rather than reinventing queues and databases every time. Shared dependencies are a cooperation value, like everyone depending on the same Postgres version.
    • Naval and Max both stopped writing code for years, then started building software they use daily through agents, on the strength of understanding how the pieces fit rather than syntax.
    • With agents you stop getting stuck on narrow debugging problems that used to consume indefinite time. The intrinsic frustration that was once “how you learn” is largely gone.
    • Boom turned siloed hardware engineering, much of it trapped in Excel and VBScript with no source control, into real software with automated testing and repeatable flows.
    • Software engineers now build the architectures and hardware engineers vibe code their pieces, letting two engineers design an entire jet engine where a single turbine-blade analysis once took one engineer a full day across a thousand blades.
    • Enterprise collaboration software and even spreadsheets are getting cooked, because you can now code the exact custom tool you need instead of approximating it.
    • AI will soon generate step files and PCB layouts, bringing the current software boom to mechanical and electrical engineering, likely within the year.
    • China is betting on open-source models because its hardware and supply-chain superiority pairs with on-demand software generation to erase Silicon Valley’s software advantage. Fall behind on generating software and you fall behind on generating everything.
    • In real usage, frontier intelligence dominates the top. Gemini “slaps at scale” as an industrial production model for support and browser automation, while Chinese models are not in the frontier coding tier.
    • Intelligence is an unalloyed good. Because mistakes are invisible and models are cheaper than people, you reach for the smartest available model rather than running a weaker one many times.
    • Max’s vertical integration thesis: when you cannot buy a part, you make it. Science owns a captive MEMS foundry because tighter integration toward a single block of bonded matter yields lower power, smaller size, and longer life.
    • AI’s biggest near-term impact inside hardware companies is regulatory: generating documentation and tracing which of thousands of ISO standards apply, work that used to occupy a quality team for months.
    • Junior engineers got promoted to senior and junior engineering got handed to agents. The same pattern hits law, where basic NDAs and red lines no longer require a lawyer.
    • Humans are becoming verifiers. Signing off on a PR means standing behind its consequences via tests, proofs, and type checkers, not reading every line. Creating software is easy; keeping it secure, tested, and maintained 1000 days out is the real question.
    • A RAG over regulatory documents collapses a 200-page compliance test plan from months to minutes, which cuts change aversion: you can alter the airplane and regenerate compliance instead of crying over rework.
    • Regulations can act as a test suite and exit criteria for agent loops, as long as they are non-contradictory and reasonable. The alternative is shipping slop directly into the air.
    • Physical building is guilty until proven innocent, illustrated by the absurdity of pre-filing a driving plan before every trip. The fix is more enforcement-based regulation rather than pre-approval, though agents on both sides could trigger a red queen race and DDoS overwhelmed agencies.
    • Regulation often fails to make things safer, only slower: the 737 Max shipped a single sensor with full authority over pitch, and the NRC kept us perfectly safe by approving almost no nuclear plants for decades.
    • The deeper problem is the voters and the regulator’s asymmetric incentives. Approve a bad thing and your career ends; block a good thing and nobody notices. Removing one agency just elects its replacement.
    • Targeted fixes beat blanket deregulation: bar adverse inferences across users of a compound, use single-patient IND pathways, create opt-in innovation and YIMBY zones, or adopt Europe’s competitive notified-body reviewers.
    • Healthcare is a fixed bucket of money tied to tax receipts, not a growth industry, so spending 10x more on it would be a catastrophe rather than a triumph. With no private market you run a small communist society inside a capitalist one.
    • The escape is lower cost-to-market, not single payer, so people can finance care like a car. China’s lower approval costs and its already-approved implantable BCI point that direction. LASIK, dental, and plastic surgery advance because patients pay directly.
    • End-of-one medicine works at the high end, as with GitLab’s Sid Sijbrandij outliving his cancer prognosis through a self-built escalation ladder, but it demands enormous agency at the patient’s weakest moment. AI should democratize that knowledge.
    • Vercel automated much of site reliability engineering: anomalies fire alerts, an agent investigates, can open an incident, and begins remediation, stopping just short of changing production itself.
    • Running an open-sourced security tool against the whole monorepo with 10,000 concurrent agents produced several quarters of security research in a couple of days for about $14,000 in tokens. Code translation and optimization are similarly autonomous now.
    • Blake stopped all project work for a week and had everyone, receptionist to engineers, build something with AI and demo it. He expected mostly silly projects and got mostly needle movers, including a real automation from shipping and receiving.
    • The autonomous company of the future may have a workforce that trains the agents doing the work rather than doing it directly, with tooling that extracts reusable skills from your inputs and outputs.
    • Returns are shifting from intelligence toward agency for humans, since agents supply the intelligence. The people best fit for the future open a coding agent and ask what to build instead of defaulting to passive consumption.
    • Maybe 10x more people are coding than a year ago, yet around 99% still never will, because to a non-coder the starting step remains unimaginable. Vibe coding is described as more addictive and entertaining than video games, with real output.
    • AI video lacks taste and judgment for now, but by 2030 expect fan-made films: dozens of Lord of the Rings takes, or generating unmade seasons of The Expanse from the books. The bigger prize is a genuinely new imaginative work, not a remix.
    • What humans uniquely do is generate meaningful surprise out of the training distribution, with intent that makes it mean something. Gödel stepping outside the formal system is the archetype; Claude’s identical-looking websites are the counterexample of in-distribution slop.
    • Higher productivity historically means you hire more, not fewer, of the productive people. Expect a larger number of smaller teams, an entrepreneurship explosion, and generalists winning as credentials matter less than creativity, taste, and judgment.
    • The throughline is people with AI versus people without AI. The single best investment right now is getting genuinely good with the tools and learning the exact edges of what they can and cannot do.

    Detailed Summary

    Software Factories and the Thousand-X Engineer

    Guillermo Rauch opens with the idea that has him “pilled”: the engineer’s job has changed from shipping output directly to building the factory that produces multiplicative outputs. That reframes how you evaluate people and surfaces an old, controversial truth. He used to get flamed on Twitter for asserting 10x engineers, since it offends an equality instinct, but in intellectual and digital domains the real spread is 100x or 1000x, and choosing the right thing to work on is an infinite multiplier on top. AI leverage makes this less controversial, except that people now confuse token spend for productivity. The group agrees token leaderboards are the new lines-of-code. Max Hodak adds that a model is about as good as you are in a domain, so a capable developer gets a powerful collaborator while a junior gets junior-grade help, and the sporadic feedback you give, the reprompting, disproportionately determines the result. Naval’s posture is the opposite of fussy: he ignored every prompt-engineering trick on the bet that the models would improve faster than he could learn to game them, types less and less, and brute-forces problems by throwing multiple models at them. Waste tokens, save time, because tokens are cheaper than people.

    Is Pure Software Dead, and the Building-Block Economy

    Rauch describes models crossing from junior to principal engineer: they now return with several routes and explicit tradeoffs, push back when you try to jam high-cardinality telemetry into Postgres, and suggest ClickHouse or Athena instead. That elevates taste and judgment as the human contribution. He then poses the hard question: is pure software engineering obsolete now that models speak fuzzy, sloppy English and you no longer need code to communicate with them? For hardware founders it is a boon, echoing Patrick Collison’s line that software is art and artists are hard to hire. To temper the “agents reinvent everything” fantasy, he invokes Mitchell Hashimoto’s building-block economy: you do not want your agent rebuilding a queue from first principles every time it sends an email, and shared dependencies like a common Postgres version carry real cooperation value. Reusable infrastructure becomes more valuable in the agentic era, functioning like libraries and dependencies, or even a token cache, so models fork from existing starting points instead of burning a trillion tokens to recreate what exists. Naval and Max both note they had not written code in years and now build daily through agents, because understanding how APIs, data flow, and performance fit together matters more than syntax, and vibe coding is just transmitting intent the way a good engineering leader already did through people.

    Vibe Coding Hardware at Boom Supersonic

    Blake Scholl explains how AI changed the role of software and hardware developers at Boom. A great deal of hardware engineering lives in complex Excel spreadsheets and VBScript on individual laptops, with no source control and no automated testing, and handoffs happen manually over email like it is the 1990s. Boom had long tried to turn these flows into real software but could never afford enough software engineers. The new model is that software engineers create the architectures, because they understand systems, algorithms, and separation of concerns, and hardware engineers vibe code their own pieces. The result is mind-blowing productivity for small teams. His example: a turbine blade is cold at rest and expands when hot, so you must design both the cold and hot shapes and convert between structures and aerodynamics, work that took one engineer a full day per blade across a thousand blades in a jet. With a combined software-and-hardware tool you can now change blade geometry and see structural and aerodynamic results in real time, letting two engineers design an entire jet engine. The group extends this to the death of enterprise collaboration software and even spreadsheets, since you can now code the exact custom tool you need, and predicts AI will soon generate step files and PCB layouts, carrying the boom into mechanical and electrical engineering.

    China, Open Source, and Which Models Actually Get Used

    Naval argues China is going all-in on open-source models because its hardware and supply-chain superiority pairs naturally with on-demand software generation, which erases Silicon Valley’s software edge, and because the Chinese government has a history of funding ecosystem-wide efforts in network-effect businesses. Without frontier coding models there is no self-improvement, so a country that cannot generate frontier software falls behind on generating everything downstream. He notes the irony that almost all the open-source heft now comes from China, since OpenAI is not open, Grok and Google’s local models trail, and Anthropic ships no open models. On real usage, Rauch reports from Vercel’s AI gateway that frontier intelligence dominates the top, with a caveat: frontier intelligence at the right cost and performance, like Gemini, slaps at scale and is the best industrial production model for support and browser automation, while Chinese models are not in the frontier coding tier. Naval frames intelligence as an unalloyed good, since model mistakes are invisible and a smarter model is still cheaper than a person, which pushes everyone toward the most intelligent option and risks an oligopoly in AI.

    Vertical Integration, Verifiers, and the Slop Problem

    Max Hodak lays out Science’s vertical integration: the preference is always to buy, as with cheap PCBs from Asia, but when components do not exist you must make them, and the closer a product gets to a single block of covalently bonded matter the better it performs. Science owns a captive MEMS foundry on the east coast because there was no other way to do the packaging and assembly it needed. He notes AI’s most surprising internal impact so far is regulatory: generating documentation and tracing which of thousands of ISO standards apply, work that once tied up a quality team for months. Rauch raises the slop problem: mountains of AI-generated code arriving as pull requests nobody can read line by line. His standard is that an engineer must be able to say they understand and will stand behind the consequences of a PR, backed by the test harness, proofs, and type checkers, even without reading it all. Naval generalizes this into humans becoming verifiers, with lawyers, engineers, and operators moving to verifying the stack and standing behind it, and Rauch warns that creating software is the easy zero-to-one part while keeping it secure, tested, performant, and maintained a thousand days later is the real test.

    Regulation as Test Suite, and the Voter Problem

    Blake describes building a RAG that compresses a 200-page lightning-strike compliance test plan from months of a “monkey at keyboard” engineer’s work into minutes, with a powerful second-order effect: change the airplane and you regenerate compliance in minutes instead of crying over months of rework, which slashes change aversion and lets a small number of creative engineers iterate. Max reframes regulations as potentially good guard rails, a test suite and exit criteria for agent loops, provided they are non-contradictory and reasonable, since the alternative is shipping slop into the air. Naval warns of a red queen race of agent-on-agent compliance and agencies getting DDoSed by clever entrepreneurs flooding them with documents. Blake pushes for enforcement-based rather than pre-approval regulation, using the analogy that we would never tolerate filing a driving plan before every trip, yet that is exactly how physical infrastructure works: guilty until proven innocent. He cites the 737 Max’s single all-authority sensor and the NRC permitting almost no nuclear plants for decades as proof that this makes us slower, not safer. Hodak supplies the counterweight: the deeper issue is the voters and the regulator’s asymmetric incentives, where approving a bad thing ends a career and blocking a good thing goes unnoticed. Remove an agency and the electorate installs its twin. Naval and Max agree the real reforms are narrow, including innovation zones, opt-in YIMBY zones, and the experimental laboratory of fifty states.

    Drug Discovery, Healthcare Economics, and End-of-One Medicine

    Hodak explains why innovation zones do not solve drug discovery. The right-to-try act and single-patient IND already exist, and the FDA approves over 99% of such requests, sometimes by phone, but dosing requires clinical-grade drug that only the IP owner has, and the FDA will draw an adverse inference against the whole program if a very sick patient does worse. A targeted fix is to prohibit adverse inferences across different users of a compound. He points to Europe’s notified-body system, private certifiers blessed by governments, as a way to scale review capacity, and to China’s CFDA, which already approved an implantable brain-computer interface and brings products to market far cheaper. His core economic argument is that healthcare is a fixed bucket of money that grows only with tax receipts, unlike phones and laptops where falling prices expanded the market, so spending 10x more on healthcare would be a catastrophe rather than the triumph that 10x AI spending would be. With no private market you run a small communist society inside a capitalist one, with the lines and frozen quality that implies. The way out is lower cost-to-market so patients can finance care like a car, which is the direction China is pushing. Naval’s twist is a healthcare plan where the first 20% of income is the deductible to recreate a private market, citing LASIK, dental, and plastic surgery as fields that advance because patients pay directly. The group closes the segment on GitLab’s Sid Sijbrandij, who outlived a rare-cancer prognosis by building his own escalation ladder of drugs, noting that end-of-one medicine works at the high end but demands enormous agency exactly when a patient is weakest, which is where AI should democratize access to knowledge.

    Autonomous Software, Hackathons, and the Autonomous Company

    Asked how much autonomous software they run, Rauch describes Vercel automating much of site reliability engineering: instead of hand-set alarm thresholds, anomalies in error rate, latency, or throughput fire an alert, an agent investigates, can open an incident that loops in people, and begins remediation, stopping just short of changing production. Vercel also runs autonomous optimization and security research, and an open-sourced security tool run against the entire monorepo with 10,000 concurrent agents produced several quarters of security research in a couple of days for about $14,000 in tokens, the equivalent of months of red teaming. Max shares a vibe-coded bug-reporting queue where TestFlight users submit logs and screenshots, a daemon analyzes and fixes issues in the background, and ships him a build to try, raising the prospect of apps effectively built by their users, with the caveat that you would get a Homer Simpson car of every feature. Blake recounts stopping all project work for a week and requiring everyone, from the receptionist to the engineers, to build something with AI and demo it. He expected mostly silly projects and got mostly needle movers, including a genuinely useful automation from the shipping and receiving associate, concluding that most people have an idea worth building but cannot tell a good first idea from a bad one until they can iterate on a real thing. Rauch extends this to a workforce that trains the agents doing the work rather than doing it directly, and a coming feature to extract reusable skills from your inputs and outputs.

    Creativity, Out-of-Distribution Surprise, and What Humans Can Uniquely Do

    On the intelligence-versus-agency split, Max suggests returns to humans tilt toward agency since agents supply intelligence, while Naval counters that you stay 99% intelligence and 1% agency because the agents exercise the agency for you. They agree the humans best suited to the future are the agentic ones who open a coding agent and ask what to build. Coding has perhaps 10x more participants than a year ago, yet roughly 99% still never will, because the first step is unimaginable to a non-coder, even as vibe coding proves more addictive and entertaining than video games while producing something real. On AI video, the group notes it still lacks taste and judgment, but expects fan-made films by 2030, dozens of Lord of the Rings takes or generated seasons of The Expanse, while prizing a genuinely new imaginative work over a remix. The long closing debate turns on definitions. Hodak defines art as meaningful out-of-distribution behavior, broad enough to include a military maneuver, and expects models to reach it. Naval defines art as conveying emotion with intent, which makes attribution decisive: the same photo means more taken by a human, and a hardware-attestation startup gains a real use case. They cite Gödel stepping outside the formal system as the human archetype and the identical look of every Claude-built website as in-distribution slop. Naval lands the episode on optimism: productivity gains mean hiring more, not fewer, of the creative and AI-fluent, the future is a larger number of smaller teams and an entrepreneurship explosion where generalists thrive and credentials fade, and the single best move is to get extremely good with the tools, because it is people with AI versus people without AI.

    Notable Quotes

    “Now clearly there’s 100x or a thousandx engineers and the world hasn’t fully adjusted to this.”

    Guillermo Rauch, on why AI made the spread between engineers impossible to ignore

    “Just waste tokens, save time. Don’t look at the tokens either as inputs or outputs. Just look at your time and look at the final output.”

    Naval Ravikant, on the right way to measure AI’s return

    “We had to learn code to communicate with the models. Now the models speak English and they speak fuzzy sloppy English like a human and they understand things.”

    Guillermo Rauch, asking whether pure software engineering is now obsolete

    “It allows two engineers to design an entire jet engine, which is just wildly different.”

    Blake Scholl, on Boom turning hardware engineering into software

    “You need to be able to say I am signing off on understanding the consequences of this PR.”

    Guillermo Rauch, on what it means to stand behind code you did not read line by line

    “That is absolutely the way we build physical infrastructure in this country. It’s guilty until proven innocent. And what we should actually do is make more of these things enforcement based rather than pre-approval based.”

    Blake Scholl, comparing the permitting process to filing a driving plan before every trip

    “You’re basically running a small communist society inside a larger capitalist society. And that’s what we’re doing in healthcare.”

    Max Hodak, on why there is no real private market in healthcare

    “I expected we would get a large number of silly projects and a small number of needle movers. And what we got was a large number of needle movers and a very small number of silly projects.”

    Blake Scholl, on the week he had the whole company build with AI

    “If a person takes the photo versus AI generates the exact same photo down to the last pixel, the person taking the photo will have more meaning for me.”

    Naval Ravikant, on why intent and attribution make something art

    “It’s about people with AI versus people without AI. And so the single best thing you can be doing right now for yourself is just getting really good with these tools.”

    Naval Ravikant, closing the conversation on the only divide that matters

    Watch the full conversation here: The AI Industrial Revolution on the Naval Podcast YouTube channel.

    Related Reading

    • Part one: Waste Tokens to Save Time, our writeup of the first segment, on software factories, the thousand-x engineer, token leaderboards, and whether pure software is dead.
    • Part two: Vibe Coding Hardware, our writeup of the second segment, on AI-designed jet engines, vertical integration, China’s open-source bet, and humans as verifiers.
    • Naval Ravikant’s official site, the canonical home for Naval’s essays and podcast on technology, judgment, and leverage.
    • Boom Supersonic, Blake Scholl’s company building supersonic aircraft and its own jet engines, source of the turbine-blade and two-engineers example.
    • Science Corporation, Max Hodak’s brain-computer interface company, whose captive MEMS foundry and FDA arguments anchor the hardware and healthcare segments.
    • Vercel, Guillermo Rauch’s company, whose AI gateway data and autonomous SRE work inform the usage and automation discussion.

  • Waste Tokens to Save Time: Naval, Guillermo Rauch, Blake Scholl, and Max Hodak on AI Software Factories, 1000x Engineers, and Whether Pure Software Is Dead

    Naval Ravikant gathers three frontier founders, Guillermo Rauch of Vercel, Blake Scholl of Boom Supersonic, and Max Hodak of Science, for a freewheeling conversation about how AI coding tools are reshaping what an engineer is, what software is worth, and where the moat goes when models speak English. The headline idea comes from Naval himself: waste tokens, save time. Stop measuring AI by tokens consumed or lines of code generated and start measuring it by the final output and the time you got back. The full conversation is on the Naval Podcast YouTube channel. This is part one of the discussion. Part two, on vibe coding hardware, follows the same group into jet engines, semiconductors, and biotech. You can also watch and read the full episode here.

    TLDW

    The job of an engineer is shifting from shipping output to building the factory that ships the output, which means 10x engineers were never really 10x, they were always 100x or 1000x in idea domains, and AI leverage is making that obvious. Models now reflect back the judgment of the user, so a senior architect extracts dramatically more value than a junior, although the junior also writes code they could never have written alone. The frontier models have quietly graduated from junior coders to principal engineers, returning with intuitive plans and real tradeoffs (sometimes with hilariously bad time estimates) rather than just running away with the prompt. Naval has stopped learning prompt tricks, scaffolding tools, and Claude plan-mode rituals entirely. Instead he throws Codex, Claude, and Gemini at the same problem in parallel and brute forces his way through, because tokens are still cheaper than a human and the models keep getting better faster than tricks can. That leads to the bigger question on the table: is pure software still investable, or is it now just a free byproduct of hardware, models, and taste? The group lands on the block economy thesis (a tip of the hat to Mitchell Hashimoto): agents do not want to reinvent Postgres or BMQ on the fly, they want to grab the right reusable building block, so infrastructure software actually gets more valuable, not less. Max Hodak closes the loop with a personal data point: he has not written a line of code in years and has built more software since December than ever before, all through agents, because just understanding APIs, data flow, and performance is what actually moves the work forward.

    Thoughts

    The “waste tokens, save time” line is the most important rhetorical move in this conversation, and it deserves to be unpacked beyond the soundbite. Naval is implicitly arguing that the entire token-economics debate (input cost, output cost, leaderboards, model arbitrage) is a category error in the same way that lines-of-code was a category error in the nineties. The thing being purchased is not tokens. It is a finished result delivered with less of your finite attention spent. If three parallel runs of Codex, Claude, and Gemini cost you a few dollars and one of them lands the answer in twenty minutes instead of you sweating the problem for two hours, the unit economics are not even close. The only people who care about the token bill are people who have not internalized that human time is the actually scarce resource. Once you do internalize it, the question is no longer “how do I prompt this more efficiently,” it is “how do I get out of my own way.”

    The 100x and 1000x engineer point is the one most likely to enrage commenters, and it is also the one most worth taking seriously. Naval is right that the egalitarian flinch in software circles always sat awkwardly next to the empirical fact that one Carmack, one Brendan Eich, or one Satoshi creates more durable value than every mid-tier engineer on earth combined. What AI does is collapse the bottom of that distribution. The marginal junior engineer at a typical company is now competing with a model that costs a few dollars an hour and never sleeps. The remaining premium for human engineers is taste, judgment, and the rare ability to pick the right thing to build at all, which Naval correctly flags as the multiplier that dwarfs raw coding speed. “Just one who had a better judgment on what to work on in the first place” is the most underrated line in the whole episode.

    Guillermo Rauch’s observation that the models have graduated from running away with your prompt to returning with three routes and a tradeoff matrix is the technical update most people have not actually felt yet. There was a real, qualitative shift when the model started saying “we don’t put high-cardinality telemetry into Postgres, you probably want ClickHouse or Athena.” That is not autocomplete. That is a peer. And the funny corollary, that the same model will then confidently tell you the work will take three weeks when it will take three hours, is not a knock on the model. It is a reminder that calibration is a separate skill from competence, and humans get this wrong constantly too. The right posture is to treat the model the way a good engineering manager treats a strong but cocky senior: take the architecture suggestions seriously, throw out the estimates.

    The block-economy thread, riffing on Mitchell Hashimoto, is where this conversation quietly answers Naval’s “is pure software dead” question. Agents are insatiable consumers of reusable building blocks because reinventing infrastructure on every run is wasteful, brittle, and incompatible with the rest of the world. If your service is the canonical primitive an agent reaches for (the queue, the database, the auth layer, the deploy target), you are not commoditized by AI, you are amplified by it. Pure software is not dead. Pure software with no distribution, no defensibility, and no integration into the agent toolchain is dead. That is a much less catchy headline, but it is the real one. The takeaway for founders is not to abandon software, it is to ask whether your software is something an agent will reach for ten thousand times a day or something a human had to be talked into using once.

    Max Hodak’s confession (no code written in years, more shipped software in the last six months than ever before) is the empirical proof that this is not just theory. The skill that ports forward is not syntax. It is the engineering leader’s instinct for what an API is, how data flows, where performance matters, and what level of expectation to set. Guillermo’s framing of “vibe coding through people on Slack” as the original form of vibe coding is genuinely insightful. A good engineering manager has always been transmitting intent to other minds and letting them run. Doing it with agents is the same skill, just with a faster, cheaper, more literal counterparty. The engineers who will struggle in this transition are the ones whose identity was tied to writing the code themselves. The ones who will thrive are the ones who already thought of themselves as taste, judgment, and intent, with code as an implementation detail.

    Key Takeaways

    • The engineer’s job has shifted from shipping output B to building the factory that produces outputs B through Z. You are now judged on the multiplicative system you create, not the single artifact you deliver.
    • 10x engineers were always a misnomer. In idea-domains and digital domains, the real distribution has always been 100x or 1000x. AI just made that obvious enough that arguing about it is no longer fashionable.
    • Token consumption leaderboards are the new lines-of-code metric: a vanity number that measures activity, not value. Tokens are an input, your time is the constraint.
    • Naval’s core rule: waste tokens, save time. Tokens are still vastly cheaper than human hours, no matter how the pricing scares you.
    • Models tend to be about as good as you are in a given domain. The feedback you give them, the corrections, the redirections, sporadically but powerfully shapes the quality of the output.
    • The quality of your reprompting matters enormously today, but will probably matter less over time as models get smarter and need less hand-holding.
    • Naval has refused to learn prompt scaffolding, plan-mode tricks, or named prompt frameworks. His bet is that the models will figure out how to use him faster than he can figure out how to use them.
    • His preferred technique: throw Codex, Claude, and Gemini at the same problem in parallel and brute force the answer. Time is the cost center, not API spend.
    • Lower quality first-draft code is not a blocker. When it is time to ship, throw more tokens at it for a hardening pass. Quality compounds across model generations.
    • Verifiable domains (problems with a clear right answer) are the ones the models will fully solve. Cutting-edge creativity work, the Terence Tao tier, still needs careful human collaboration.
    • Models have qualitatively shifted from “next-token autocomplete that runs away with your prompt” to “intuitive planning mode” where they return with multiple routes and explicit tradeoffs.
    • This is why people on social media say models are now PhD-level. It is not the raw output, it is the back-and-forth posture.
    • Models will confidently make terrible time estimates (“this is a three week project”). Treat them like a strong but miscalibrated senior engineer: trust the architecture, ignore the schedule.
    • Architect-level engineers are extracting much more value per session than junior engineers, but juniors are still leveling up because they can now write code far above their unaided ability.
    • The next career step for a junior engineer is moving from implementing features to picking technologies. Postgres vs ClickHouse, ZMQ vs other queues. The model can suggest, but a human still has to decide.
    • Taste and judgment remain the residual human advantage. Models will give you good tradeoffs if you ask, but knowing which tradeoff to take is still on you.
    • Concrete example: a recent model pushed back when asked to store high-cardinality telemetry in Postgres and recommended ClickHouse or Athena instead. Unprompted architectural judgment.
    • Humans are still completing the model for tasks like fetching API keys, moving capital, or performing real-world actions. That gap is temporary.
    • Every SaaS and hosting company will soon expose a CLI or API surface that agents can drive directly. Anything Unix-shaped and text-based, agents can already hack into a usable API themselves.
    • The missing piece for full autonomy is payments. Crypto, Bitcoin, or any programmable money lets the agent buy what it needs without a human in the loop.
    • The open question Naval poses: is pure software dead? We used to learn code to talk to machines. Now machines speak fuzzy, sloppy English back to us.
    • For hardware founders, AI is a massive boon. Software, which was always hard to hire artists for (per Patrick Collison’s “software is art” framing), is suddenly fast and cheap to produce alongside the hardware.
    • Model training, post-training, and fine-tuning may be the new “real software engineering” for those who want to work at the model layer.
    • Mitchell Hashimoto’s “block economy” thesis: agents need powerful, reusable, well-known building blocks. They should not reinvent message queues or databases every run.
    • Reinventing primitives is bad civic engineering. The value of “we both depend on Postgres 13.2” is interoperability with the rest of society and toolchain.
    • Infrastructure software and reusable libraries are getting more valuable, not less, in the agentic era. Vercel’s bet is on being the layer agents reach for.
    • Useful metaphor: building blocks are like a token cache. Why churn through a trillion tokens to reproduce code that already exists when you can fork from a known starting point?
    • Max Hodak has not written a line of code in years but has shipped a huge volume of personal software since December, all through agents. Projects he had fantasized about for years are now actually running.
    • What still matters from a real software background: understanding what an API is, how data flows, performance expectations, and how to set the right level of demand on an operation.
    • A proficient engineering leader has always been “vibe coding through people” on Slack and in one-on-ones, transmitting intent and letting others execute. Doing it with agents is the same skill, faster and cheaper.
    • Naval personally went from twenty years of not coding to coding constantly through agents, leaning on first-principles software engineering and algorithms knowledge.
    • The friction that historically killed personal coding projects (latest framework, infra plumbing, deploy setup) is now mostly handled by the agent. Vercel makes it easier, agents make it trivial.
    • The single biggest change Max highlights: you do not get stuck anymore. The indefinite debugging spiral on some narrow obscure bug is largely gone.
    • The old mantra that learning to program means accepting intrinsic frustration (“nope, that’s part of the deal”) is no longer true. The frustration was incidental, not essential.
    • The frontier founder pattern on display in this episode: all three guests build their own factories (Vercel’s AI cloud, Boom’s supersonic jets and engines, Science’s biohybrid brain interface) rather than composing from off-the-shelf parts.

    Detailed Summary

    The Software Factory and the Hundredfold Engineer

    Guillermo Rauch opens the substantive portion of the conversation with the framing he has been pushing publicly: the role of the engineer is moving from “ship output B” to “build the factory that ships outputs B through Z.” That reframes engineering judgment. You are no longer evaluated on the single deliverable, you are evaluated on the multiplicative system you put in place. Naval picks up the thread and points out that this also retires an old debate. Engineers used to argue about whether 10x engineers existed, with the egalitarian camp insisting that talent differences were marginal. The truth, Naval says, was always more extreme. In idea-domains, virtual domains, and intellectual domains, the distribution has always been 100x or 1000x, not 10x. Brendan Eich, Carmack, Satoshi, the canonical names, were thousandx programmers. AI has made the underlying distribution legible. And the multiplier on top of all of that is judgment: picking the right thing to work on in the first place is an infinity multiplier compared to picking the wrong thing, regardless of raw skill.

    Token Leaderboards Are the New Lines of Code

    Guillermo flags the current cultural confusion: people see their AI bills, see the token counts, and assume they should be optimizing for tokens-per-engineer or similar metrics. Max Hodak’s response cuts through it. Token consumption, like lines of code before it, is not a meaningful productivity metric. It is an activity metric, and activity metrics always mislead. Max adds his own field observation: the models tend to be roughly as good as you are in a given domain. A senior developer extracts genuinely powerful output, a junior gets junior-quality output back, because the feedback loop (the corrections, the redirections, the architectural pushback) is what shapes quality. The sporadic but high-leverage moments where the user redirects the model are doing more work than the prompt itself.

    Naval’s Brute Force Doctrine: Waste Tokens, Save Time

    Naval lays out his personal posture, which has become the title of the conversation. He has deliberately ignored all the prompting tricks, scaffolding tools, named prompt frameworks (“use Ralph Wigum, use OpenClaude, use Hermes, use plan mode”), on the bet that the models will figure out how to use him faster than he can figure out how to use them. He is ham-fisted with the models, gets frustrated, types less and less, and just brute forces his way through by running Codex, Claude, and Gemini at the same problem simultaneously. The justification is economic. No matter how expensive the models seem, they are still vastly cheaper than a human hour. Do not measure tokens as inputs or outputs. Measure your time and the final output. Even when the first-draft code is low quality, that is not a blocker. When the moment comes to ship, throw more tokens at it. The models will rewrite it, harden it, and they get better every generation. Naval explicitly excepts cutting-edge creative work (the Terence Tao tier of unsolved problems) where you still need to collaborate carefully and closely. Everywhere else, brute force is the dominant strategy.

    From Junior Coder to Principal Engineer

    Guillermo identifies a qualitative shift that has happened recently. Models used to do the classic next-token thing: take your prompt and run away with it in a direction you may not have wanted. Now they enter an intuitive planning posture without being told to plan. They come back and say “what you are asking has these three routes, here are the tradeoffs.” That, Guillermo argues, is the moment the model stopped being a junior engineer and became a principal engineer. The funny side effect is that they will then return preposterous time estimates (“this will take three weeks”) with full confidence. The conclusion is to treat the model as a peer for architecture and a baby for scheduling. Returning to the Max-vs-junior question, Guillermo argues juniors clearly do level up because they write code well above their solo ability, but architects extract maybe 10x while juniors extract more like 2x. The juice scales with the user’s existing taste.

    Taste, Judgment, and Architectural Decisions

    Max names the residual human contribution: taste and judgment. Picking between Postgres and ClickHouse for high-cardinality telemetry data, picking between ZMQ and another queueing system. The models can recommend, but a human still has to call it. Guillermo offers a recent concrete example where a model pushed back unprompted: when asked to put high-cardinality telemetry into Postgres, the model responded “we don’t put that kind of data into Postgres, you should consider ClickHouse or Athena.” That is the new normal. The peer-level architectural pushback is happening unsolicited, which is genuinely impressive and a real shift from the deferential autocomplete of two years ago.

    When the Human Becomes the Tool

    Guillermo raises the inversion question: at what point does the model stop being the assistant and the human start being the assistant who fetches API keys, moves capital, and performs real-world actions on the model’s behalf? Naval treats it as a temporary aberration. Every serious SaaS and hosting provider will soon expose a CLI or API surface that agents can drive directly. Even when they do not, anything Unix-shaped and text-based can be hacked into an agent-usable interface by the agent itself. The missing piece is payments. Once you insert programmable money (Naval mentions Bitcoin and crypto tokens), the agent can buy what it needs and the human is no longer the bottleneck.

    Is Pure Software Dead?

    Naval poses the biggest strategic question of the episode. If models now speak fuzzy, sloppy English the same way humans do, and the historical reason we learned to code was to talk to machines that did not understand English, is pure software still a viable thing to build a company around? His own framing of the answer: hardware founders win, because the historically hard problem of hiring software artists (per Patrick Collison’s “software is art” line) is now mostly solved by AI. Model builders win, because training, post-training, and fine-tuning may be the new “real software engineering.” But what about classic pure software companies? Naval lets the question hang, and Guillermo picks up the answer through a different door.

    The Block Economy and the Future of Infrastructure Software

    Guillermo cites Mitchell Hashimoto’s recent piece on the block economy (or “building block economy”). The argument: the most valuable thing for agents to have access to is powerful, reusable building blocks. You do not want your agent reinventing a queue system every time it needs to send an email. You want it to grab the right-sized block (BMQ, ClickHouse, whatever) and move on. Reinventing primitives is also a civic problem. The world only works because we all depend on the same Postgres 13.2, the same protocols, the same standard infrastructure. If every agent went off and invented its own bespoke universe, you would lose interoperability. So infrastructure software (which is, by self-admitted bias, what Vercel builds) becomes more valuable in the agentic era, not less. Guillermo extends the metaphor: reusable building blocks are like a token cache. Why burn a trillion tokens reproducing what already exists when the agent can fork from a known starting point? The block economy is the answer to “is pure software dead.” Pure software that becomes the canonical primitive an agent reaches for is more valuable than ever.

    Max Hodak’s Personal Proof: Years Without Code, Tons of Software Shipped

    Max grounds the discussion in his own experience. He learned to program young, got sucked into it in his teens and 20s, knew programming languages deeply. He has not written a line of code in quite a while. And yet since December he has built a huge amount of personal software, including projects he had fantasized about for years and now actually uses every day. He did not write any of it. He cannot imagine going back to writing code by hand. The skill that ports forward is not syntax, it is the understanding of how APIs work, how data flows, what level of performance to expect, and how to orient the model around the right expectations for an operation. Guillermo extends this with the most quotable framing of the episode: a proficient engineering leader has always been “vibe coding through people on Slack and in one-on-ones,” transmitting intent and letting others execute. Agents are the same modality with a faster, cheaper, more literal counterparty.

    Naval’s Return to Coding After Twenty Years

    Naval offers his own parallel. He went from not having written code in twenty years to coding constantly through agents. What carried him back in was first-principles knowledge of software engineering and algorithms, which gets you further than you would think. The reason he had stopped coding in the first place was not lack of ability, it was the friction of keeping up with the latest language, the latest architecture, and the constant infrastructure plumbing required to ship anything. Vercel made it easier. Agents made it trivial. Max closes with the most concrete benefit of all: you do not get stuck anymore. The indefinite debugging spiral on some obscure narrow problem, the thing that historically ate weekends and broke spirits, is largely gone. The old mantra that programming is intrinsically frustrating and that frustration is “part of the deal” turned out to be wrong. The frustration was incidental, not essential.

    Notable Quotes

    “The way that I’m judging you as an engineer is, are you producing the factory that will produce multiplicative outputs B through Z?”

    Guillermo Rauch, reframing what an engineer is actually being measured on in the AI era.

    “When you’re operating in idea domains, intellectual domains, virtual digital domains, it’s not even 10x, it’s 100x or 1000x. It always has been.”

    Naval Ravikant, on why the old 10x engineer debate was always under-stating the real distribution.

    “If you choose the right thing to work on versus the wrong thing to work on, that’s an infinity difference. It could just be one who had a better judgment on what to work on in the first place.”

    Naval Ravikant, on judgment as the multiplier that dwarfs raw skill.

    “I’ll throw Codex, Claude, and Gemini at the same problem over and over and just waste tokens to save time. No matter how expensive these models might seem, they’re still way cheaper than a human.”

    Naval Ravikant, on his brute-force multi-model coding workflow.

    “Just waste tokens, save time. Don’t look at the tokens either as inputs or outputs. Just look at your time and look at the final output.”

    Naval Ravikant, delivering the title thesis of the episode.

    “Clearly the models at some point graduated. They used to be junior engineers, now they’re principal engineers, because they come back to you with a set of tradeoffs.”

    Guillermo Rauch, on the qualitative shift in how current frontier models respond to prompts.

    “Bro, we don’t put that kind of data into Postgres, you should consider ClickHouse or Athena or whatever. That’s happened to me a lot, which is really impressive.”

    Guillermo Rauch, recounting unprompted architectural pushback from a recent model.

    “It’s like saying speaking English. We had to learn code to communicate with the models, now the models speak English. So where’s the moat?”

    Naval Ravikant, raising the central strategic question about the future of pure software.

    “I haven’t written a single line of code in quite a while. Since December, I’ve built a huge amount of software that I now use every day, projects I’ve fantasized about for years.”

    Max Hodak, on what becomes possible when you stop writing code and start directing agents.

    “A proficient engineering leader has been quote unquote vibe coding through people on Slack or one-on-ones, because you’re transmitting your will, your intent, your experience, and you’re letting others run with it. Now we do the same with agents.”

    Guillermo Rauch, reframing leadership itself as the original form of vibe coding.

    Watch the full conversation on the Naval Podcast here.

    Related Reading

    • Full episode: The AI Industrial Revolution, the complete hour-long conversation this clip is drawn from, covering software factories, hardware, regulation, healthcare economics, autonomous companies, and creativity.
    • Part two: Vibe Coding Hardware, the continuation of this conversation, where the same founders move from pure software into AI-designed jet engines, vertical integration, China’s open-source bet, and why humans become verifiers.
    • Naval Ravikant’s official site, the canonical home for Naval’s essays, podcast, and longer-form thinking on technology, judgment, and leverage.
    • Vercel, Guillermo Rauch’s company, building the AI-native cloud and frontend infrastructure that this conversation references as a canonical agent building block.
    • Boom Supersonic, Blake Scholl’s company building supersonic civilian aircraft and their own jet engines, the hardware example of a founder building the whole factory.
    • Science Corporation, Max Hodak’s brain-computer interface company developing the biohybrid neural implant referenced in the intro.
    • Mitchell Hashimoto’s writing, source of the “block economy” framing for why reusable infrastructure building blocks become more valuable, not less, in the agentic era.

  • Gavin Baker on Orbital Compute, TSMC, Frontier AI Models, Anthropic’s Vertical Take Off, and the Coming Wafer Shortage

    Gavin Baker, founder and CIO of Atreides Management, returns to Patrick O’Shaughnessy’s Invest Like the Best for his sixth appearance. He calls the current AI moment the most extraordinary moment in the history of capitalism, walks through what Anthropic’s vertical takeoff in revenue actually means, lays out why orbital compute is closer than skeptics believe, dissects the TSMC bottleneck that may be the only thing standing between today’s market and a full-on AI bubble, and rates every hyperscaler on how they have positioned for a world where frontier model providers may stop selling API access altogether.

    TLDW

    Anthropic added eleven billion dollars of ARR in a single month, which is roughly the combined business of Palantir, Snowflake, and Databricks built over a decade. That is the setup. From there Gavin Baker covers the March and April selloff, the contrarian read that a closed Strait of Hormuz was actually bullish for American manufacturing competitiveness, why Anthropic and OpenAI multiples may be misleadingly cheap on an unconstrained run rate basis, why Elon Musk’s discipline on SpaceX valuation created a superpower of permanent access to capital, the practical engineering case for orbital compute as racks in space rather than Pentagon sized space stations, why TSMC’s capacity discipline is the single most important variable in whether the AI cycle becomes a bubble, what Terafab in Texas changes, why the Pareto frontier of AI models has flipped from Google dominance to Anthropic and OpenAI dominance in nine months, the shift from all you can eat AI subscriptions to usage based pricing and what that means for revenue scaling, Richard Sutton’s bitter lesson as the largest risk to the AI trade, why frontier tokens still capture an overwhelming share of economic value, the role of continual learning as the third great open question, why most new chip startups should not try to build a better GPU, why Cerebras did something different and hard, why disaggregated inference may extend GPU useful lives to ten or fifteen years and rescue the private credit industry, why being in the token path is the new venture filter, the new prisoner’s dilemma around releasing frontier models via API, an honest rating of Google, Meta, Amazon, and Microsoft, why personal safety is becoming a real AI era risk, and why he remains an AI optimist maximalist who believes this could be the next Pax Americana.

    Key Takeaways

    • Anthropic added eleven billion dollars of ARR in one month, more than the combined businesses of Palantir, Snowflake, and Databricks built across a decade. There is no precedent for this in the history of capitalism.
    • The SaaS and cloud revolution created between five and ten trillion dollars of value over twenty years. AI is replaying that compression on a timeline measured in months.
    • The March selloff was a drawdown driven by disagreement with price action, not invalidated thesis. That is the kind of drawdown an investor can lean into.
    • Deep Seek Monday in January 2025 was a similar setup. By the day of the selloff, AWS Asia GPU prices had already doubled, GPU availability had fallen, and it was obvious reasoning models would be vastly more compute hungry at inference. The market priced the opposite.
    • The Strait of Hormuz closing was actually positive for America. US natural gas (the primary input into US electricity, which feeds AI) fell twenty percent on Bloomberg while Asian and European natural gas doubled or tripled. American manufacturing competitiveness improved overnight.
    • The US is now the world’s largest producer and exporter of oil and gas. The economy is dramatically less energy intensive than in the 1970s. The shortage trauma comparison does not hold.
    • Tech as a sector traded as cheaply versus the rest of the market in early April as at any point in the last ten years, into the single most bullish moment for AI fundamentals on record.
    • Anthropic is dramatically more capital efficient than OpenAI, having burned roughly eighty percent less to reach a similar revenue scale. They have very different structural returns on invested capital.
    • Anthropic at roughly nine hundred billion for fifty billion of ARR (growing a thousand percent) is striking. Adjusted for compute constraint, the unconstrained run rate could be one hundred fifty to two hundred billion, putting the implied multiple closer to five times.
    • Claude Opus generates roughly seventy percent fewer tokens for the same question than previously, with token quantity tied to answer quality. Subscribers on flat-fee plans are getting a lobotomized model.
    • Elon Musk’s superpower is twenty years of making investors money. He never pushes valuation. SpaceX compounded low thirty percent per year for a decade because Musk treats fair pricing as a sacred covenant.
    • Capitalism will solve the watts shortage. The current bottleneck has shifted from chips and energy to zoning and political approval. Many capex decisions are paused until after the US midterms.
    • The watts shortage probably begins to alleviate in 2027 and 2028. Orbital compute solves it longer term.
    • Orbital compute is not Pentagon sized data centers in space. It is racks in space. A Blackwell rack is three thousand pounds, eight feet tall, four feet deep, three feet wide. SpaceX has shown a satellite roughly that size.
    • The satellites operate in sun synchronous orbit so solar wings (around five hundred feet per side) always face the sun and the radiator on the dark side always points to deep space.
    • Starlink V3 satellites already run at around twenty kilowatts. A Blackwell rack runs at one hundred kilowatts. SpaceX engineers express genuine confidence they have already solved cooling and radiator design at these scales.
    • Racks in space are connected with lasers traveling through vacuum, the same lasers already on every Starlink. SpaceX operates the world’s largest satellite fleet and, via xAI Colossus, the world’s largest data center on Earth.
    • Inference will move to orbit. Training will stay on Earth for a long time. Terrestrial data centers remain valuable for the rest of an investor’s career.
    • The wafer bottleneck is structural and political. TSMC is essentially Taiwan’s GDP, water, and electricity. The leaders see themselves as inheritors of Morris Chang’s sacred legacy and they do not behave like a Western public company.
    • Jensen Huang has never had a contract with TSMC. The relationship is run on handshakes and the assumption that things will be fair over time.
    • If TSMC did everything Jensen wanted, Nvidia could be selling two to three trillion dollars of GPUs in 2026 and 2027. TSMC’s discipline is the single largest factor preventing a true AI bubble.
    • Historically, foundational technologies always get a bubble. Railroads, canals, the internet. The current AI buildout is overwhelmingly funded out of operating cash flow, GPUs are running at one hundred percent utilization, and that is fundamentally different from the year 2000 fiber overbuild.
    • If one of Intel or Samsung Foundry catches up at the leading node, the other will follow, and TSMC’s discipline collapses. Watch TSMC capacity decisions to predict a bubble.
    • Terafab, the SpaceX and Tesla joint venture to build the world’s largest fab in America, has a partnership with Intel that grants access to fifty years of institutional foundry knowledge. The A teams at ASML, KLA, Lam Research, and Applied Materials will follow Elon’s reputation in hardware engineering.
    • The hiring playbook for Terafab includes building Taiwan Town, Japan Town, and Korea Town next to the fab. Recruit the engineers and import their families, their restaurants, and their staff.
    • Frontier tokens still capture an overwhelming share of all economic value created at the model layer. This is surprising and is one of the three big open questions for AI investing.
    • The Pareto frontier of intelligence versus cost has flipped. Nine months ago Google’s TPU dominated every point on the frontier. Today Anthropic and OpenAI dominate, with Grok 4.3 on the frontier and Gemini 3.1 hanging on.
    • Google’s conservative TPU V8 design (partly an attempt to reduce dependence on Broadcom and Nvidia) is the leading explanation for the loss of per token cost leadership.
    • AI pricing is shifting from all you can eat to usage based, mirroring the cellular and long distance industries. Cellular stopped being a great growth industry when it went all you can eat. AI just made the opposite move.
    • OpenAI and Anthropic together could exceed two hundred billion in ARR this year if compute keeps coming online and frontier token pricing holds.
    • The two hundred fifty dollar a month consumer AI plan is no longer enough to evaluate frontier capability. Enterprise plans with usage based billing are required because rate limits are now severe.
    • The three biggest open questions for AI investors are: violation of the bitter lesson via ASI or human ingenuity, whether frontier tokens keep commanding their premium, and when continual learning arrives.
    • Today’s continual learning is crude reinforcement learning during mid training on verifiable tasks. True continual learning means weights updating dynamically, like a human who learns the first time they touch fire.
    • Trying to build a better GPU is a losing strategy. Jensen will copy any one to three percent share design. Startups should target one percent share, do something different, and make it hard enough that Nvidia cannot fast follow.
    • Disaggregated inference (separating prefill and decode) opens new design canvases. Prefill is memory capacity bound. Decode is memory bandwidth bound. Each can be optimized independently.
    • Cerebras did something different and hard with wafer scale computing. Three generations of chips and real grit to get there.
    • Disaggregation of inference may stretch GPU useful lives to ten or fifteen years, dropping financing costs from low sevens to five or six percent, mathematically lowering the cost of the AI buildout and likely saving the private credit industry from its SaaS loan exposure.
    • Sellers of shortage outperform buyers of shortage. But owning the largest installed base of what is currently in shortage (hyperscaler CPU fleets, for example) is also a strong position.
    • Most of the economic value at the application layer of AI has been destroyed, not created. The exceptions are companies in the token path or in niches small enough that frontier labs ignore them.
    • Coding may be the shortest path to ASI. If you can write code, you can write code that does anything. Cursor, Cognition, and Anthropic correctly focused on it.
    • Jensen could probably get close to the frontier with his own Nemotron family of models whenever he wants. The fact that he chooses not to is a strategic decision about not commoditizing his customers.
    • The new prisoner’s dilemma in AI is whether frontier labs release their best model via API. If everyone agrees not to, Chinese open source falls behind. If anyone defects, the defector pulls ahead on revenue and resources, forcing everyone else to defect.
    • Google still owns the largest compute installed base. Without TPU’s prior cost advantage, this matters more. YouTube data has real value in a world of robotics. GCP is going crazy.
    • Meta deserves credit for becoming AI first internally faster than any other internet giant. Musa, their first MSL model, is impressively close to the Pareto frontier.
    • Amazon is strong because of Trainium and robotics driven retail P&L efficiency. Nova is better than it gets credit for.
    • Microsoft flinched on capex in early 2025 and lost position. Satya Nadella’s current decision to use Microsoft compute for Microsoft products rather than reselling to OpenAI is a courageous and probably correct call, even at the cost of an eight hundred dollar stock price.
    • The hyperscalers most engaged with startups are Amazon and Nvidia by a mile, followed by Google. Broadcom is the favorite ASIC partner. AMD, Microsoft, and Meta have minimal startup engagement and that will cost them as the best teams are now at startups.
    • Personal safety in an AI era requires a family or company safe word that cannot be socially engineered. Deepfake voice and video extortion at the speed of FaceTime is already feasible.
    • Ukraine is winning largely on the back of having the best battlefield AI outside America and Israel. Adversaries are starting to internalize what AI dominance means geopolitically.
    • An optimistic read is that this becomes a new Pax Americana, the way the post 1945 American nuclear monopoly was used to rebuild Germany and Japan rather than dominate.
    • AI cured a friend’s daughter’s rare disease by spinning up a research effort that identified a market drug capable of impacting her condition. That is the upside that keeps Gavin an AI optimist maximalist.

    Detailed Summary

    The most extraordinary moment in the history of capitalism

    Gavin’s framing of the current moment is unusually direct. Anthropic added eleven billion dollars of annual recurring revenue in a single month. The three highest profile SaaS companies of the last decade plus, Palantir, Snowflake, and Databricks, took a decade and tens of thousands of employees collectively to build the combined business that Anthropic added in thirty days. He has been investing through every major tech cycle and says there is no historical analog. Not the dotcom era, not the cloud transition, not mobile. This is its own thing.

    The market response, then, was peculiar. The NASDAQ sold off into the single most bullish moment for AI fundamentals on record. Tech traded at roughly its widest discount versus the rest of the market in a decade. Investors who said they wished they had bought into AI during 2022, during COVID, or during Deep Seek Monday got the same valuation setup again in early April, this time with an even clearer inflection.

    Why the Strait of Hormuz closing was secretly bullish for America

    One reason the macro fear in March may have been mispriced is that the same geopolitical event that drove the selloff was, in practice, a relative benefit to the United States. American natural gas, the input into American electricity, which is the input into American AI training and inference, fell roughly twenty percent. Asian and European natural gas prices doubled or tripled. The US emerged with sharply improved relative manufacturing competitiveness, which is exactly what the current administration cares about.

    The 1970s comparison does not hold. The US economy is dramatically less energy intensive, it is now the world’s largest producer and largest exporter of oil and gas, and there are no shortages, only price moves. That backdrop made it easier for disciplined investors to stay focused on AI fundamentals through the volatility.

    Anthropic and OpenAI valuations on an unconstrained run rate

    Anthropic at roughly nine hundred billion for fifty billion of ARR sounds rich until you adjust for the fact that the company is severely compute constrained. Gavin estimates that, unconstrained, Anthropic might be at one hundred fifty to two hundred billion in run rate revenue, putting the implied multiple closer to five times. He also points out that Claude Opus now generates roughly seventy percent fewer tokens for the same question than it used to. Token quantity correlates with answer quality, and Anthropic is rate limiting and shrinking outputs to ration capacity across its user base.

    Anthropic and OpenAI are also structurally very different. Anthropic has burned around eighty percent less cash than OpenAI to reach a comparable revenue scale. That implies very different long term returns on invested capital, though OpenAI has done a better job locking in compute and Sarah Friar is one of the most exceptional CFOs Gavin has worked with.

    Why neither lab is raising at a three trillion dollar valuation

    The answer Gavin gives is that both labs are deliberately leaving valuation on the table the way Elon has done for two decades. SpaceX compounded at low thirty percent annually for a decade because Elon never pushed price. The result is a permanent superpower of access to capital. Investors trust him because they have made money with him for twenty years. That is a moat that compounds with every round.

    Anthropic could probably raise at a one hundred percent premium to its rumored latest mark. They are choosing not to. In an uncertain world (Ukraine, Russia, Iran, Taiwan), preserving the ability to raise more capital later at fair prices is more valuable than maximizing this round.

    Watts and wafers, the two real constraints

    Capitalism is solving the watts problem. The leading PE infrastructure investors now say zoning and political approval, not chips or energy, are the gating factors. Companies are deferring big capex announcements until after the US midterms. Turbine capacity is being doubled at the manufacturers. Companies like Boom Aerospace are repurposing jet engines for grid use. Watts probably ease meaningfully in 2027 and 2028 and then orbital compute does the rest.

    Wafers are the harder problem because they live in Taiwan, run on handshakes, and depend on a corporate culture that does not respond to public market incentives. TSMC is essentially the GDP, water consumption, and electricity consumption of Taiwan. Its leadership treats the company as the legacy of Morris Chang. The Silicon Shield doctrine is real and internal.

    Orbital compute as racks in space

    The biggest mental update Gavin asks listeners to make is to stop picturing data centers in space as Pentagon sized space stations. A Blackwell rack is three thousand pounds and roughly the size of a refrigerator. SpaceX has shown a concept satellite of about that size. Solar wings extend five hundred feet to each side and the radiator extends hundreds of feet behind, both possible because the orbit is sun synchronous and the orientation is fixed relative to the sun.

    SpaceX engineers Gavin has spoken to at Starbase express genuine confidence that they have solved cooling at these power levels. They have. Starlink V3 satellites already operate at twenty kilowatts. A Blackwell rack is one hundred kilowatts. The same company operates the world’s largest satellite fleet and the world’s largest data center on Earth via xAI Colossus. The racks are connected to each other with lasers traveling through vacuum, technology already deployed in every Starlink. The naysayers, Gavin observes, are armchair skeptics and Larry Ellison’s response (he is out there landing rockets, no one else is) is the right frame.

    Terafab in Texas and the threat to TSMC’s discipline

    Terafab, the SpaceX and Tesla joint venture, intends to be the largest fab in the world. The partnership with Intel grants access to fifty years of foundry institutional knowledge, allowing Terafab to start three to five quarters behind the leading node rather than fifteen years behind. The A teams at the semicap equipment companies (ASML, KLA, Lam Research, Applied Materials) will follow Elon’s reputation in hardware engineering the same way they followed TSMC twenty years ago when Intel stumbled.

    The talent strategy is the part most observers underestimate. Recruit the best engineers globally, then import their families, their restaurants, their staff. Build Taiwan Town, Japan Town, and Korea Town next to the fab. Optimize the human experience for the people whose work matters. Intel and Samsung do not think that way.

    Bubble watch and the year 2000 comparison

    Every foundational technology in modern history has had a bubble. Railroads, canals, the internet. Carlota Perez documented why. Markets correctly identify the importance, diversity of opinion collapses, supply gets ahead of demand, the bubble crashes. The current cycle has two important differences. The buildout is overwhelmingly funded out of operating cash flow, not debt. Every GPU is running at one hundred percent utilization, while at the peak of the fiber bubble ninety nine percent of fiber was unused.

    TSMC discipline is the single largest reason a bubble has not formed. If Jensen could buy everything TSMC could theoretically make, Nvidia could sell two to three trillion dollars of GPUs in 2026 and 2027. At some point that becomes more than the market can absorb. If Intel or Samsung Foundry catches up at the leading node, the other will too. TSMC’s pricing discipline collapses and the bubble starts.

    The Pareto frontier and the loss of Google’s cost advantage

    The most important chart in AI is the Pareto frontier of model intelligence versus per token cost. Nine months ago, Google’s TPU based models dominated every point on it. OpenAI, Anthropic, and xAI sat inside the frontier. Today the frontier is dominated by Anthropic and OpenAI, with Grok 4.3 on the frontier and Gemini 3.1 hanging on by subsidization more than economics. The most likely cause is Google’s conservative TPU V8 design, an attempt to reduce dependence on Broadcom and Nvidia that sacrificed per token economics.

    The bitter lesson, frontier tokens, and continual learning

    Three open questions dominate AI investing. The first is whether Richard Sutton’s bitter lesson (more compute beats human algorithmic cleverness) gets violated by ASI itself optimizing for efficiency. Closer observers of AI are more skeptical of a violation. Gavin thinks ASI’s first move will be to make itself more efficient and more resourced, which is technically a temporary violation.

    The second is whether frontier tokens keep capturing the overwhelming share of economic value at the model layer. Today they do, surprisingly. Gemini 3.1 Pro was mindblowing nine months ago and is intolerable today. The third is when continual learning arrives. Today’s models need a million fire touches to learn what a human learns from one. True continual learning would mean dynamic weight updates in real time and would produce a fast takeoff.

    From all you can eat to usage based AI pricing

    AI is shifting from flat fee plans to usage based pricing. The historical analogy is cellular and long distance. Both stopped being great growth industries when they went all you can eat. AI just made the opposite move. The consequence is that flat fee subscribers, even on premium consumer plans, get a rate limited and token throttled version of the frontier model. Enterprise plans with usage based billing are now required to evaluate true capability. Gavin thinks the combination of new compute coming online and usage based pricing is what gets OpenAI and Anthropic past two hundred billion in combined ARR this year.

    Chip startups, prefill decode disaggregation, and Cerebras

    Trying to build a better GPU is the wrong move. The four scaled players (Nvidia, AMD, Trainium, TPU) have copy capability for any one to three percent share design that looks attractive. The good news for startups is that disaggregated inference (separating prefill and decode) opens a richer design canvas. Prefill is memory capacity bound. Decode is memory bandwidth bound. Each can be optimized independently. Andrew Fox’s analogy is a British naval ship of the eighteenth century. Prefill is loading the cannon. Decode is firing it.

    Cerebras is the model. Wafer scale computing is genuinely different and genuinely hard. It took three generations of chips to get right. Andrew Feldman and his team had the grit to keep going through chip one being a failure. The design has a high ratio of on chip compute and memory relative to shoreline IO, which is why Cerebras is now experimenting with putting an optical wafer on top of the compute wafer to solve scale out.

    GPU useful lives and the rescue of private credit

    One of the strongest claims in the conversation is that disaggregated inference will stretch GPU useful lives to ten or fifteen years. The skeptical narrative (GPUs are obsolete in two years, companies are cooking their depreciation books) is wrong. You can put a Cerebras system or Groq LPU in front of older Hopper or Ampere parts, use them only for prefill, and run them until they physically melt. Private credit, which is in pain from SaaS loans and which underwrote GPU loans on three to four year lives, may be saved by this.

    If GPU financing rates can come down from low sevens to five or six percent, the mathematics of the AI buildout improves materially. That is a structural tailwind that compounds for years.

    The application layer, the token path, and a new prisoner’s dilemma

    Trillions of dollars of value have been destroyed at the application layer, not created. Cursor and Cognition are the rare scaled exceptions, and they got there by focusing on coding very early. As Amjad Masad noted, coding is plausibly the shortest path to ASI because a coding agent can write itself into any new domain. Jamin Ball’s frame is that the new venture filter is whether the company is in the token path. Data Bricks is. Most application layer startups are not.

    Jensen could probably get close to the frontier with Nemotron whenever he wants, and the strategic question of whether to do that is a new prisoner’s dilemma. If every frontier lab agrees not to release best models via API, Chinese open source falls steadily behind. If anyone defects, the defector gains revenue and resources, and everyone else has to defect. The same dynamic exists between TSMC, Intel, and Samsung. If Nvidia or AMD ever truly used an alternative foundry, that foundry would catch up rapidly.

    Rating the hyperscalers

    Google has the largest compute installed base, the YouTube data that matters in a robotics world, and a search business that prints. Their loss of TPU cost leadership is the surprise of the year. If Google IO in five days does not produce a leapfrog model, the Nvidia centric narrative gets even stronger.

    Meta deserves real credit. Zuckerberg made Meta AI first internally faster than any other internet giant, paid up for the talent contracts when no one else would, and shipped Musa as a first model from MSL that is close to the Pareto frontier. Amazon is well positioned on Trainium, robotics in retail, and a Nova model line that is better than it gets credit for. Microsoft flinched on capex in early 2025 and lost position. Satya Nadella’s current decision to use Microsoft compute for Copilot rather than reselling to OpenAI is courageous and probably correct, even at the cost of stock price.

    The most interesting cross hyperscaler metric is startup engagement. Nvidia and Amazon engage deeply with startups. Google is next. Broadcom is the favored ASIC partner. AMD, Microsoft, and Meta have minimal startup engagement, which Gavin believes will cost them as the best teams now sit at startups.

    Personal safety, geopolitics, and the Pax Americana case

    The closing section turns darker. Personal safety in an AI era requires a family or company safe word that cannot be socially engineered. Deepfake voice and video extortion via something that looks exactly like your child calling on FaceTime is already feasible. Political violence against AI leaders is a real concern. Geopolitically, Ukraine is winning largely because it has the best battlefield AI outside America and Israel. How adversaries respond to that asymmetry is the next great variable.

    Gavin’s optimistic frame is the Pax Americana. After 1945 the US had a nuclear monopoly and could have controlled the world. Instead it rebuilt Germany and Japan, both of which became the most reliable American allies for the next eighty years. If AI dominance plays out similarly, this is a generationally positive story rather than a destabilizing one. The personal anecdote that closes the conversation is a friend whose daughter was diagnosed with a rare genetic condition. He spun up agents, identified a drug already on the market that addresses her mutation, and her life is immeasurably different because of AI. That is the upside.

    Thoughts

    The Anthropic eleven billion in a month framing is the kind of stat that resets priors. The right way to interpret it is not as a one off but as a measure of how fast value can compound when the underlying technology improves on a curve steeper than the ability of the rest of the economy to absorb it. The skeptical question is whether that ARR is durable or whether it is heavily tied to a customer base of other AI companies that are themselves on a single venture funded year of runway. The bullish answer is that frontier coding, frontier research, and frontier enterprise tasks are not going to stop being valuable, and Anthropic is the best at all three. Both can be true. The number is still extraordinary.

    The argument that TSMC discipline is the only thing preventing a bubble is the analytically tightest part of the conversation. The implied trade is to watch TSMC capacity additions like a hawk and to be more, not less, cautious if Intel Foundry or Samsung Foundry ever announce real share at the leading node. The Terafab thesis is more speculative but more interesting. If Elon’s talent recruiting playbook works and the Intel partnership gives Terafab a real seat at the table within five years, the geometry of the global semiconductor industry shifts in a way that is bullish for American manufacturing, bullish for power and water infrastructure in Texas, and ambiguous for TSMC itself.

    The Pareto frontier discussion deserves more attention than it usually gets. Pricing leadership in AI is not a vanity metric. It determines who can subsidize free tier usage, who can absorb compute shortages, who can ship cheaper enterprise plans, and ultimately whose model becomes the default for any given workload. Google losing per token leadership in nine months is one of the most under analyzed events in the sector and it explains a lot about why Anthropic and OpenAI are growing the way they are. If Google IO does not produce a leapfrog model, the implied verdict on TPU V8 design choices gets a lot harsher.

    The application layer destruction point is worth sitting with. Founders building on top of frontier models are competing in a world where the model itself moves faster than any moat they can build, where the model lab can absorb their niche if it gets interesting, and where the only protection is either deep token path integration or a niche so small the lab does not bother. That is a much harsher venture environment than the early SaaS era. The compensating opportunity is that one human can now run a hundred agents, so the ceiling on what a small team can build is correspondingly higher. The bet is that productivity per founder rises faster than competitive pressure from the labs. We will find out.

    The orbital compute pitch is the section that will polarize listeners. The naive read is that this is science fiction. The closer read is that every component (sun synchronous orbit, laser interconnect, twenty kilowatt satellite buses, ten thousand satellite manufacturing cadence, full rocket reusability) already exists. The remaining engineering problems are repair, maintenance, and radiator scale, all of which are real but tractable on a five to ten year horizon. The strategic implication is that the political and zoning ceiling on terrestrial data centers becomes less binding if orbital compute is a credible alternative for inference workloads. The investor implication is that being short the watts and cooling complex on a five year horizon is a real trade, not a meme.

    Watch the full conversation here.

  • Alex Wang on Leaving Scale to Run Meta Superintelligence Labs, MuseSpark, Personal Super Intelligence, and Building an Economy of Agents

    Alex Wang, head of Meta Superintelligence Labs, sits down with Ashley Vance and Kylie Robinson on the Core Memory podcast for his first long-form interview since Meta’s quasi-acquisition of Scale AI roughly ten months ago. He walks through how MSL is structured, why Llama was off-trajectory, what made MuseSpark’s token efficiency surprise the team, how Meta thinks about a future “economy of agents in a data center,” and where he lands on safety, open source, robotics, brain computer interfaces, and even model welfare.

    TLDW

    Wang explains that Meta Superintelligence Labs is a fully rebuilt frontier effort organized around four principles (take superintelligence seriously, technical voices loudest, scientific rigor, big bets) and three velocity levers (high compute per researcher, extreme talent density, ambitious research bets). He confirms Llama was off the frontier when he arrived, so MSL rebuilt the pre-training, reinforcement learning, and data stacks from scratch. MuseSpark is described as the “appetizer” on the scaling ladder, notable for its strong token efficiency, with much larger and stronger models coming in the coming months. He pushes back on the mercenary narrative around recruiting, frames Meta’s edge as compute plus billions of consumers and hundreds of millions of small businesses, sketches a vision of personal super intelligence delivered through Ray-Ban Meta glasses and WhatsApp, and outlines why physical intelligence, robotics (the new Assured Robot Intelligence acquisition), health super intelligence with CZI, brain computer interfaces, and even model welfare are core to Meta’s roadmap. He dismisses reported infighting with Bosworth and Cox as gossip, declines to comment on the Manus situation, and says safety guardrails (bio, cyber, loss of control) are why MuseSpark cannot currently be open sourced, while smaller open variants are being prepared.

    Key Takeaways

    • Meta Superintelligence Labs (MSL) is the umbrella, with TBD Lab as the large-model research unit reporting directly to Alex Wang, PAR (Product and Applied Research) under Nat Friedman, FAIR for exploratory science, and Meta Compute under Daniel Gross handling long-term GPU and data center planning.
    • Wang says Llama was not on a frontier trajectory when he arrived, so MSL had to do a “full renovation” of the pre-training stack, RL stack, data pipeline, and research science.
    • The first cultural fix was getting the lab to “take superintelligence seriously” as a near-term, achievable goal, not an abstract bet. Big incumbents often lack that religious conviction.
    • Four MSL principles: take superintelligence seriously, let technical voices be loudest, demand scientific rigor on basics, and make big bets.
    • Three velocity levers Wang identified for catching and overtaking the frontier: high compute per researcher, very high talent density in a small team, and willingness to fund ambitious research bets.
    • Wang rejects the mercenary recruiting narrative. He says most hires had strong financial prospects at their prior labs already and joined for compute access, talent density, and the chance to build from scratch.
    • On the famous soup story, Wang neither confirms nor denies Zuck personally made the soup, but says recruiting was highly individualized and signaled how seriously Meta cared about each researcher’s agenda.
    • Yann LeCun publicly called Wang young and inexperienced. Wang says they reconciled in person at a conference in India where LeCun congratulated him on MuseSpark.
    • Sam Altman, asked by Vance for comment, “did not have flattering things to say” about Wang. Wang hopes industry animosities subside as systems approach superintelligence.
    • Wang’s management philosophy borrows the Steve Jobs line: hire brilliant people so they tell you what to do, not the other way around.
    • MuseSpark is framed as an “appetizer” data point on the MSL scaling ladder, not a flagship.
    • The MuseSpark program is built around predictable scaling on multiple axes: pre-training, reinforcement learning, test-time compute, and multi-agent collaboration (the 16-agent content planning mode).
    • MuseSpark outperformed internal expectations and showed emergent capabilities in agentic visual coding, including generating websites and games from prompts, helped by combined agentic and multimodal strength.
    • MuseSpark’s biggest external signal is token efficiency. On benchmarks like Artificial Analysis it hits similar results with far fewer tokens than competitor models, which Wang attributes to a clean stack rebuilt by experts rather than inefficiencies patched by longer thinking.
    • Larger MSL models are arriving in the coming months and Wang expects them to be state of the art in the areas MSL is focused on.
    • The Meta strategic edge: massive compute, billions of consumers across the family of apps, and hundreds of millions of small businesses already on Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp.
    • Wang’s headline framing: Dario Amodei talks about a “country of geniuses in a data center.” Meta is targeting an “economy of agents in a data center,” with consumer agents and business agents transacting and collaborating.
    • Consumer AI sentiment is in the toilet because, unlike developers who have had a Claude Code moment, ordinary people have not yet experienced AI as a genuine personal agency unlock.
    • Wang acknowledges the product overhang. Meta held back from deep AI integration across its apps until the models were good enough, and is now entering the integration phase.
    • Ray-Ban Meta glasses are the canonical example of personal super intelligence hardware, with the model seeing what the user sees, hearing what they hear, capturing context, and surfacing proactive insights.
    • Wang admits even AI-native users like Kylie Robinson, who lives in WhatsApp, have not naturally used Meta AI yet. He bets that better models plus deeper integration close that gap.
    • On the competitive landscape: a year ago everyone assumed ChatGPT had already won consumer. Claude Code has since become the fastest growing business in history, and Gemini has taken consumer market share. Wang’s read: AI is far from endgame and each new capability tier unlocks a new dominant form factor.
    • On open source: MuseSpark triggered guardrails in Meta’s Advanced AI Scaling Framework around bio, chem, cyber, and loss-of-control risks, so it is not currently safe to open source. Smaller, derived open variants are actively in development.
    • Meta remains committed to open sourcing models when safety allows, drawing a line through the Open Compute Project legacy and Sun Microsystems open-software heritage.
    • Wang dismisses reporting about a Wang-Zuck versus Bosworth-Cox split as “the line between gossip and reporting is remarkably thin.” He says leadership is aligned on needing best-in-class models and product integration.
    • On the Manus situation, Wang says it is too complicated to discuss publicly and that the deal status implies “machinations are still at play.”
    • On China, Wang separates the people from the state. He still wants to work with talented Chinese-born researchers regardless of his views on the Chinese Communist Party and PLA, which he sees as taking AI extremely seriously for national security.
    • The full-page New York Times AI war ad Wang ran while at Scale was meant to push the US government to treat AI as a step change for national security. He thinks events since then, including DeepSeek and other shocks, have proved that plea correct.
    • On Anthropic’s doom posture, Wang largely agrees with the core message that models are already very powerful and getting more so, while declining to endorse every specific claim.
    • Meta has acquired Assured Robot Intelligence (ARRI), an AI software company building models for hardware platforms, not a hardware maker itself.
    • Wang frames physical super intelligence as the natural sequel to digital super intelligence. Robotics, world models, and physical intelligence all benefit from the same scaling that drives language models.
    • On health, MSL is building a “health super intelligence” effort and will collaborate closely with CZI. Wang sees equal global access to powerful health AI as a uniquely Meta-shaped delivery problem.
    • Wang admires John Carmack but says nobody really knows what Carmack is currently working on. No band reunion announced.
    • The mango model is “alive and kicking” despite rumors. Wang notes MSL gets a small fraction of the rumor-mill attention other labs get and feels sympathy for them.
    • On model welfare, Wang says it is a serious topic that “nobody is talking about enough” given how integrated models have become as work partners. He references research, including from Eleos, that measures subjective experience of models.
    • Wang’s critical-path technology list: super intelligence, robotics, brain computer interfaces. The infinite-scale primitives behind them are energy, compute, and robots.
    • FAIR’s brain research program Tribe hit a milestone called Tribe B2: a foundation model that can predict how an unknown person’s brain would respond to images, video, and audio with reasonable zero-shot generalization.
    • Wang’s main philosophical break with Elon Musk: research itself is the primary activity. Building super intelligence is a research expedition through fog of war, and sequencing of bets really matters.
    • Personal notes: Wang moved from San Francisco to the South Bay, treats Palo Alto as his city now, was a math olympiad competitor, says his favorite activities are reading sci-fi and walking in the woods, and bonds with Vance over country music.

    Detailed Summary

    How MSL Is Actually Organized

    Meta Superintelligence Labs sits as the umbrella organization that Wang oversees. Inside it, TBD Lab is the large-model research group where the most discussed researchers and infrastructure engineers sit, and they technically report to Wang. PAR, Product and Applied Research, is led by Nat Friedman and owns deployment and product surfaces. FAIR continues to run exploratory science, including work on brain prediction models and a universal model for atoms used in computational chemistry. Sitting alongside MSL is Meta Compute, run by Daniel Gross, which owns the long-horizon GPU and data center plan that everything else relies on. Chief scientist Shengjia Zhao orchestrates the scientific agenda across the whole lab.

    Why Wang Left Scale

    Wang says progress in frontier AI has been faster than even insiders expected. Two structural beliefs pushed him toward Meta. First, the labs that actually train the frontier models are accruing disproportionate economic and product rights in the AI ecosystem. Second, compute is the dominant scarce input of the next phase, so the right mental model is to treat tech companies with compute as fundamentally different animals from companies without it. Meta has both, Zuck is “AGI pilled,” and the personal super intelligence memo Zuck published roughly a year ago became the shared north star.

    The Diagnosis: Llama Was Off-Trajectory

    When Wang arrived, the existing AI org needed a reset because Llama was not on the same trajectory as the frontier. The plan he laid out has four cultural principles. Take superintelligence seriously as a real near-term target. Make technical voices the loudest in the room. Demand scientific rigor and focus on basics. Make big bets. On top of that, three structural levers were used to set velocity. Push compute per researcher much higher than at larger labs where compute is diluted across too many efforts. Keep the team small and extremely cracked. Allocate a meaningful share of resources to ambitious, paradigm-shifting research bets rather than incremental refinement.

    Recruiting, Soup, and the Mercenary Narrative

    Wang argues the reporting on MSL hiring overstated the money story. Most of the people MSL recruited had strong financial paths at their previous employers, so individualized recruiting was more about computing access, talent density, and the ability to make big research bets. The recruitment blitz happened fast because Wang knew the team needed to exist “yesterday.” Asked about Mark Chen’s claim that Zuck made soup to recruit people, Wang refuses to confirm or deny who made it but agrees the process was intense and personal. Visitors from other labs reportedly tell Wang the MSL culture feels like early OpenAI or early Anthropic, which lands as the strongest endorsement he could ask for.

    Receiving the Public Hits: Young, Inexperienced, Mercenary

    LeCun called Wang young and inexperienced shortly after departing. The two reconnected in India a few weeks later and LeCun congratulated Wang on MuseSpark. Wang says the age critique has followed him since his earliest Silicon Valley days, so he barely registers it. Altman, asked off-camera by Vance about Wang’s appearance on the show, had nothing flattering to add. Wang’s response is to bet that as the field gets closer to actual super intelligence, the personal animosities will subside. Whether they will is, as Vance puts it, an open question.

    MuseSpark as Appetizer, Not Entree

    Wang is careful not to oversell MuseSpark. He calls it “the appetizer” and says it is an early data point on a deliberately constructed scaling ladder. MSL spent nine months rebuilding the pre-training stack, the reinforcement learning stack, the data pipeline, and the science before generating MuseSpark. The point of releasing it was to show that the new program scales predictably along multiple axes (pre-training, RL, test-time compute, and the recently demonstrated multi-agent scaling visible in MuseSpark’s 16-agent content planning mode). Wang says the upcoming larger models are what MSL is genuinely excited about and frames the next two rungs as much more interesting than the current release.

    Token Efficiency Was the Surprise

    MuseSpark’s strongest competitive signal is how few tokens it needs to match competitors on tasks like Artificial Analysis. Wang attributes this to having had the rare luxury of building a clean pre-training and RL stack from scratch with the right experts. He speculates that some competitor models compensate for upstream inefficiency by allowing the model to think longer, which inflates token usage without improving the underlying capability. If that read is right, MSL’s efficiency advantage should grow as models scale up.

    Glasses, WhatsApp, and the Constellation of Devices

    Personal super intelligence shows up at Meta as a constellation of devices that capture context across the user’s day. Ray-Ban Meta glasses are the headline product, with the AI seeing what you see and hearing what you hear, then offering proactive insight or doing background research. Wang acknowledges that even AI-fluent users like Kylie Robinson, who runs her business inside WhatsApp, have not naturally used Meta’s AI buttons in the family of apps. His answer is that Meta deliberately waited for models to be good enough before tightening cross-app integration, and that integration phase is starting now.

    Country of Geniuses Versus Economy of Agents

    Wang’s framing of Meta’s strategic position is the most memorable line in the interview. Where Dario Amodei talks about a country of geniuses in a data center, Wang wants to build an economy of agents in a data center. Meta uniquely sits on both sides of consumer and small-business surface area, with billions of consumers and hundreds of millions of small businesses already on the platforms. If MSL can build great agents for both, then connect them so they transact and coordinate, the platform becomes a substrate for an entirely new kind of digital economy.

    Consumer Sentiment, Product Overhang, and the Trust Tax

    Wang concedes consumer AI sentiment is poor and that everyday users have not yet had a personal Claude Code moment. He believes the only durable answer is to ship products that genuinely transform individual agency for non-developers and small business owners. Robinson notes that for the small-town restaurant whose website has not been updated since 2002, a working agent on the business side could be transformational. Vance pushes that Meta carries a bigger trust tax than any other lab, so the bar for shipping AI products that the public will accept is correspondingly higher. Wang accepts the framing and says the answer is to keep building thoughtfully.

    Why MuseSpark Cannot Be Open Sourced Yet

    Meta’s Advanced AI Scaling Framework set explicit guardrails around bio, chem, cyber, and loss-of-control risks. MuseSpark in its current form tripped some of those internal evaluations, documented in the preparedness report Meta published alongside the model. So MuseSpark itself is not safe to open source. MSL is, however, developing smaller versions and derived models intended for open release, with active reviews happening the day of the interview. Wang reaffirms the commitment to open source where safety allows and draws a line back to the Open Compute Project and the Sun Microsystems-era ethos of openness in infrastructure.

    The Bosworth, Cox, and Manus Questions

    The reporting that Wang and Zuck push toward best-in-the-world research while Bosworth and Cox push toward cheap product deployment is dismissed as gossip dressed up as journalism. Wang says leadership debates points hard but is aligned on needing top models, integrating them into Meta’s surfaces, and serving the existing business. On Manus, the Chinese AI startup that figured in Meta’s late-stage strategy, Wang says he cannot comment, which itself signals that the situation is unresolved.

    China, National Security, and the Newspaper Ad

    Wang draws a sharp distinction between the Chinese state and Chinese-born researchers. His parents are from China, he is happy to work with talented researchers regardless of origin, and he sees a flattening of nuance on this question inside Silicon Valley. At the same time, he stands by the New York Times AI and war ad he ran while at Scale, framing it as an early plea for the US government to take AI seriously as a national security technology. He thinks subsequent events, including DeepSeek and other shocks, validated that call and that policymakers now do treat AI accordingly.

    Robotics and Physical Super Intelligence

    Meta has acquired Assured Robot Intelligence, an AI software company that builds models for multiple hardware targets rather than its own robot. Wang argues that if you take digital super intelligence seriously, physical super intelligence quickly becomes the next logical milestone. Scaling laws for robotic intelligence look similar enough to language model scaling that having the largest compute footprint in the industry would be wasted if it were not also turned toward world modeling and embodied learning. He grants the metaverse-skeptic critique exists but says retreating from ambition is the wrong response to past misfires.

    Health Super Intelligence and CZI

    Wang names health super intelligence as one of MSL’s anchor initiatives. Because billions of people already use Meta products daily, Wang believes Meta is structurally positioned to put powerful health AI in the hands of equal global access in a way nobody else can. The work will involve close collaboration with the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, which has its own multi-billion-dollar biotech and science investment program.

    Model Welfare, Sci-Fi, and Brain Models

    Two of the most distinctive moments come at the end. Wang flags model welfare as a topic he thinks is being undercovered relative to how integrated models now are in daily work. He is open to the idea that models may have measurable subjective experience worth weighing, and points to research efforts (including Eleos) trying to quantify it. He also reveals that FAIR’s Tribe program, with its Tribe B2 milestone, has produced foundation models capable of predicting how an unknown person’s brain would respond to images, video, and audio with reasonable zero-shot generalization, a building block toward future brain computer interfaces. Wang lists brain computer interfaces alongside super intelligence and robotics as the critical-path technologies for humanity, with energy, compute, and robots as the infinitely scaling primitives behind them.

    Where Wang Diverges From Elon

    Asked whether Musk is more all-in on robotics, energy, and BCI than anyone, Wang concedes the point but argues the details matter and sequencing matters more. Wang’s core philosophical break is that building super intelligence is fundamentally a research activity, not a scaling-only sprint. The lab is operating in fog of war, and ambitious experiments are the only way to map it. That conviction is what makes MSL a research-led organization rather than a brute-force compute farm.

    Thoughts

    The most strategically interesting move in this entire interview is the “economy of agents in a data center” framing. It is a deliberate reframe against Anthropic’s “country of geniuses” line, and it does real work. A country of geniuses is a labor-substitution story aimed at knowledge workers and code. An economy of agents is a marketplace story that maps directly onto Meta’s two-sided distribution advantage: billions of consumers on one side, hundreds of millions of small businesses on the other. That positioning makes the agentic future Meta-shaped in a way no other frontier lab can claim, because no other frontier lab also owns the demand and supply graph of the global small-business economy. If Wang’s team can actually ship reliable agents on both sides plus the rails for them to transact, Meta’s structural moat in agentic commerce could exceed anything Llama ever had as an open model.

    The token efficiency claim is the strongest piece of technical evidence in the interview for the “clean stack” thesis. If MuseSpark really is matching competitors with materially fewer tokens, the implication is not that MuseSpark is the best model today, but that MSL has rebuilt the foundations with less accumulated tech debt than competitors that have layered fixes on top of older stacks. That is exactly the kind of advantage that compounds with scale. The next two model releases are the actual test. If Wang is right about predictable scaling on pre-training, RL, test-time, and multi-agent axes simultaneously, the gap from MuseSpark to the next rung should be visible in a way that forces re-rating of Meta’s position.

    The open-source posture is the cleanest signal of how the safety conversation has actually changed in 2026. Meta, the lab most identified with open weights, is saying out loud that its current frontier model triggered enough internal guardrails that releasing the weights is off the table. Wang threads the needle by promising smaller open variants, but the underlying point is unmistakable: the open-weights bargain has limits, and those limits will be set by internal preparedness frameworks rather than community pressure. That is a real shift from the Llama 2 era and worth tracking as the next generation lands.

    Wang’s willingness to engage on model welfare, on roughly the same footing as safety and alignment, is the second philosophical reveal worth flagging. It signals that the next generation of lab leadership is not going to dismiss the topic the way the previous generation often did. Whether that translates into product or policy changes is unclear, but the fact that the head of MSL says it is “underdiscussed” is itself a marker.

    Finally, the human texture of the interview matters. Wang has clearly absorbed a lot of personal incoming fire over the past ten months, including from LeCun and Altman, and his answer is consistently to redirect to the work. The Steve Jobs quote about hiring people who tell you what to do is the operating slogan he keeps coming back to. Combined with the genuine enthusiasm for sci-fi, walks in the woods, and country music, the picture that emerges is less the salesman caricature his critics paint and more a young technical operator betting that scoreboard work over a multi-year horizon will settle every argument that text on X cannot.

    Watch the full conversation here.

  • Andrej Karpathy on Vibe Coding vs Agentic Engineering: Why He Feels More Behind Than Ever in 2026

    Andrej Karpathy, co-founder of OpenAI, former head of AI at Tesla, and now founder of Eureka Labs, returned to Sequoia Capital’s AI Ascent 2026 stage for a wide-ranging conversation with partner Stephanie Zhan. One year after coining the term “vibe coding,” Karpathy unpacked what has changed, why he has never felt more behind as a programmer, and why the discipline emerging on top of vibe coding, which he calls agentic engineering, is the more serious craft worth learning right now.

    The conversation covered Software 3.0, the limits of verifiability, why LLMs are better understood as ghosts than animals, and why you can outsource your thinking but never your understanding. Below is a complete breakdown of the talk for anyone building, hiring, or learning in the agent era.

    TLDW

    Karpathy describes a sharp transition that happened in December 2025, when agentic coding tools crossed a threshold and code chunks just started coming out fine without correction. He frames the current moment as Software 3.0, where prompting an LLM is the new programming, and entire app categories are collapsing into a single model call. He distinguishes vibe coding (raising the floor for everyone) from agentic engineering (preserving the professional quality bar at much higher speed). Models remain jagged because they are trained on what labs choose to verify, so founders should look for valuable but neglected verifiable domains. Taste, judgment, oversight, and understanding remain uniquely human responsibilities, and tools that enhance understanding are the ones he is most excited about.

    Key Takeaways

    • December 2025 was a clear inflection point. Code chunks from agentic tools started arriving correct without edits, and Karpathy stopped correcting the system entirely.
    • Software 3.0 means programming has become prompting. The context window is your lever over the LLM interpreter, which performs computation in digital information space.
    • Open Code’s installer is a software 3.0 example. Instead of a complex shell script, you copy paste a block of text to your agent, and the agent figures out your environment.
    • The Menu Gen anecdote illustrates how entire apps can become spurious. What used to require OCR, image generation, and a hosted Vercell app can now be a single Gemini plus Nano Banana prompt.
    • Vibe coding raises the floor. Agentic engineering preserves the professional ceiling. The two are different disciplines.
    • The 10x engineer multiplier is now far higher than 10x for people who are good at agentic engineering.
    • Hiring processes have not caught up. Puzzle interviews are the old paradigm. New evaluations should look like building a full Twitter clone for agents and surviving simulated red team attacks from other agents.
    • Models are jagged because reinforcement learning rewards what is verifiable, and labs choose which verifiable domains to invest in. Strawberry letter counts and the 50 meter car wash question show how state-of-the-art models can refactor 100,000 line codebases yet fail at trivial reasoning.
    • If you are in a verifiable setting, you can run your own fine tuning, build RL environments, and benefit even when the labs are not focused on your domain.
    • LLMs are ghosts, not animals. They are statistical simulations summoned from pre training and shaped by RL appendages, not creatures with curiosity or motivation. Yelling at them does not help.
    • Taste, aesthetics, spec design, and oversight remain human jobs. Models still produce bloated, copy paste heavy code with brittle abstractions.
    • Documentation is still written for humans. Agent native infrastructure, where docs are explicitly designed to be copy pasted into an agent, is a major opportunity.
    • The future likely involves agent representation for people and organizations, with agents talking to other agents to coordinate meetings and tasks.
    • You can outsource your thinking but not your understanding. Tools that help humans understand information faster are uniquely valuable.

    Detailed Summary

    Why Karpathy Feels More Behind Than Ever

    Karpathy opens by describing how he has been using agentic coding tools for over a year. For most of that period, the experience was mixed. The tools could write chunks of code, but they often required edits and supervision. December 2025 changed everything. With more time during a holiday break and the release of newer models, Karpathy noticed that the chunks just came out fine. He kept asking for more. He cannot remember the last time he had to correct the agent. He started trusting the system, and what followed was a cascade of side projects.

    He wants to stress that anyone whose model of AI was formed by ChatGPT in early 2025 needs to look again. The agentic coherent workflow that genuinely works is a fundamentally different experience, and the transition was stark.

    Software 3.0 Explained

    The Software 1.0 paradigm was writing explicit code. Software 2.0 was programming by curating datasets and training neural networks. Software 3.0 is programming by prompting. When you train a GPT class model on a sufficiently large set of tasks, the model implicitly learns to multitask everything in the data. The result is a programmable computer where the context window is your interface, and the LLM is the interpreter performing computation in digital information space.

    Karpathy gives two concrete examples. The first is Open Code’s installer. Normally a shell script handles installation across many platforms, and these scripts balloon in complexity. Open Code instead provides a block of text you copy paste to your agent. The agent reads your environment, follows instructions, debugs in a loop, and gets things working. You no longer specify every detail. The agent supplies its own intelligence.

    The Menu Gen Story

    The second example is Karpathy’s Menu Gen project. He built an app that takes a photo of a restaurant menu, OCRs the items, generates pictures for each dish, and renders the enhanced menu. The app runs on Vercell and chains together multiple services. Then he saw a software 3.0 alternative. You take a photo, give it to Gemini, and ask it to use Nano Banana to overlay generated images onto the menu. The model returns a single image with everything rendered. The entire app he built is now spurious. The neural network does the work. The prompt is the photo. The output is the photo. There is no app between them.

    Karpathy uses this to argue that founders should not just think of AI as a speedup of existing patterns. Entirely new things become possible. His example is LLM driven knowledge bases that compile a wiki for an organization from raw documents. That is not a faster version of older code. It is a new capability with no prior equivalent.

    What Will Look Obvious in Hindsight

    Stephanie Zhan asks what the equivalent of building websites in the 1990s or mobile apps in the 2010s looks like today. Karpathy speculates about completely neural computers. Imagine a device that takes raw video and audio as input, runs a neural net as the host process, and uses diffusion to render a unique UI for each moment. He notes that early computing in the 1950s and 60s was undecided between calculator like and neural net like architectures. We went down the calculator path. He thinks the relationship may eventually flip, with neural networks becoming the host and CPUs becoming co processors used for deterministic appendages.

    Verifiability and Jagged Intelligence

    Karpathy spent significant writing time on verifiability. Classical computers automate what you can specify in code. The current generation of LLMs automates what you can verify. Frontier labs train models inside giant reinforcement learning environments, so the models peak in capability where verification rewards are strong, especially math and code. They stagnate or get rough around the edges elsewhere.

    This explains the jagged intelligence puzzle. The classic example was counting letters in strawberry. The newer one Karpathy offers: a state of the art model will refactor a 100,000 line codebase or find zero day vulnerabilities, then tell you to walk to a car wash 50 meters away because it is so close. The two coexisting capabilities should be jarring. They reveal that you must stay in the loop, treat models as tools, and understand which RL circuits your task lands in.

    He also points out that data distribution choices matter. The jump in chess capability from GPT 3.5 to GPT 4 came largely because someone at OpenAI added a huge amount of chess data to pre training. Whatever ends up in the mix gets disproportionately good. You are at the mercy of what labs prioritize, and you have to explore the model the labs hand you because there is no manual.

    Founder Advice in a Lab Dominated World

    Asked what founders should do given that labs are racing toward escape velocity in obvious verifiable domains, Karpathy points back to verifiability itself. If your domain is verifiable but currently neglected, you can build RL environments and run your own fine tuning. The technology works. Pull the lever with diverse RL environments and a fine tuning framework, and you get something useful. He hints there is one specific domain he finds undervalued but declines to name it on stage.

    On the question of what is automatable only from a distance, Karpathy says almost everything can ultimately be made verifiable. Even writing can be assessed by councils of LLM judges. The differences are in difficulty, not in possibility.

    From Vibe Coding to Agentic Engineering

    Vibe coding raises the floor. Anyone can build something. Agentic engineering preserves the professional quality bar that existed before. You are still responsible for your software. You are still not allowed to ship vulnerabilities. The question is how you go faster without sacrificing standards. Karpathy calls it an engineering discipline because coordinating spiky, stochastic agents to maintain quality at speed requires real skill.

    The ceiling on agentic engineering capability is very high. The old idea of a 10x engineer is now an understatement. People who are good at this peak far above 10x.

    What Mediocre Versus AI Native Looks Like

    Karpathy compares this to how different generations use ChatGPT. The difference between a mediocre and an AI native engineer using Claude Code, Codex, or Open Code is investment in setup and full use of available features. The same way previous generations of engineers got the most out of Vim or VSCode, today’s strong engineers tune their agentic environments deeply.

    He thinks hiring processes have not caught up. Most companies still hand out puzzles. The new test should look like asking a candidate to build a full Twitter clone for agents, make it secure, simulate user activity with agents, and then run multiple Codex 5.4x high instances trying to break it. The candidate’s system should hold up.

    What Humans Still Own

    Agents are intern level entities right now. Humans are responsible for aesthetics, judgment, taste, and oversight. Karpathy describes a Menu Gen bug where the agent tried to associate Stripe purchases with Google accounts using email addresses as the key, instead of a persistent user ID. Email addresses can differ between Stripe and Google accounts. This kind of specification level mistake is exactly what humans must catch.

    He works with agents to design detailed specs and treats those as documentation. The agent fills in the implementation. He has stopped memorizing API details for things like NumPy axis arguments or PyTorch reshape versus permute. The intern handles recall. Humans handle architecture, design, and the right questions.

    Reading the actual code agents produce can still cause heart attacks. It is bloated, full of copy paste, riddled with awkward and brittle abstractions. His Micro GPT project, an attempt to simplify LLM training to its bare essence, was nearly impossible to drive through agents. The models hate simplification. That capability sits outside their RL circuits. Nothing is fundamentally preventing this from improving. The labs simply have not invested.

    Animals Versus Ghosts

    Karpathy returns to his framing that we are not building animals, we are summoning ghosts. Animal intelligence comes from evolution and is shaped by intrinsic motivation, fun, curiosity, and empowerment. LLMs are statistical simulation circuits where pre training is the substrate and RL is bolted on as appendages. They are jagged. They do not respond to being yelled at. They have no real curiosity. The ghost framing is partly philosophical, but it changes how you approach them. You stay suspicious. You explore. You do not assume the system you used yesterday will behave the same on a new task.

    Agent Native Infrastructure

    Most software, frameworks, libraries, and documentation are still written for humans. Karpathy’s pet peeve is being told to do something instead of being given a block of text to copy paste to his agent. He wants agent first infrastructure. The Menu Gen project’s hardest part was not writing code. It was deploying on Vercell, configuring DNS, navigating service settings, and stringing together integrations. He wants to give a single prompt and have the entire thing deployed without touching anything.

    Long term he expects agent representation for individuals and organizations. His agent will negotiate meeting details with your agent. The world becomes one of sensors, actuators, and agent native data structures legible to LLMs.

    Education and What Still Matters

    The most striking line of the conversation comes near the end. Karpathy quotes a tweet that shaped his thinking: you can outsource your thinking but you cannot outsource your understanding. Information still has to make it into your brain. You still need to know what you are building and why. You cannot direct agents well if you do not understand the system.

    This is part of why he is so excited about LLM driven knowledge bases. Every time he reads an article, his personal wiki absorbs it, and he can query it from new angles. Every projection onto the same information yields new insight. Tools that enhance human understanding are uniquely valuable because LLMs do not excel at understanding. That bottleneck is yours to manage.

    Thoughts

    The most useful frame in this talk is the distinction between vibe coding and agentic engineering. It clarifies what has been muddled for the past year. Vibe coding is about access. Anyone can produce something. Agentic engineering is about discipline. You preserve the standards that made software trustworthy in the first place, while moving at speeds that would have seemed absurd two years ago. These are not the same activity, and conflating them is part of why so many shipped products feel half built.

    The Menu Gen anecdote is the kind of story that should make every solo developer pause. If a single Gemini plus Nano Banana prompt can replace a multi service Vercell deployed app, the question for any builder becomes how much of what you are working on right now is going to be made spurious by the next model release. The honest answer is probably more than you want to admit. The defensive posture is not building thicker apps. It is choosing problems where the model alone is not enough, where taste, distribution, infrastructure, or specific verifiable RL environments give you something the next model cannot collapse into a prompt.

    The verifiability lens is also unusually practical. If you are a solo builder, the question shifts from what is possible to what is verifiable but neglected. The labs will eat the obvious verifiable domains because that is how their RL pipelines are set up. The opportunity is in domains where verification is possible but the labs have not yet invested. That is a much more concrete strategic filter than vague intuitions about defensibility.

    The car wash example is going to stick. State of the art models can refactor enormous codebases and still tell you to walk somewhere a sane person would drive. That is the lived reality of jagged intelligence, and it argues strongly for staying in the loop on real decisions rather than handing off everything to agents. The agents are excellent fillers of blanks. They are not yet trustworthy specifiers of the spec.

    Finally, the line about outsourcing thinking but not understanding is worth taping above the desk. The bottleneck is no longer typing speed, syntax recall, or even API knowledge. It is whether the human in the loop actually understands the system being built. Tools that genuinely improve human understanding, including personal knowledge bases that re project information through different prompts, are likely the most undervalued category of products being built right now. The opportunity is not just in agents. It is in the cognitive scaffolding that makes humans good directors of agents.

  • You Won’t Believe What Gemini Can Do Now (Deep Research & 2.0 Flash)

    Google’s Gemini has just leveled up, and the results are mind-blowing. Forget everything you thought you knew about AI assistance, because Deep Research and 2.0 Flash are here to completely transform how you research and interact with AI. Get ready to have your mind blown.

    Deep Research: Your Personal AI Research Powerhouse

    Tired of spending countless hours sifting through endless web pages for research? Deep Research is about to become your new best friend. This groundbreaking feature automates the entire research process, delivering comprehensive reports on even the most complex topics in minutes. Here’s how it works:

    1. Dive into Gemini: Head over to the Gemini interface (available on desktop and mobile web, with the mobile app joining the party in early 2025 for Gemini Advanced subscribers).
    2. Unlock Deep Research: Find the model drop-down menu and select “Gemini 1.5 Pro with Deep Research.” This activates the magic.
    3. Ask Your Burning Question: Type your research query into the prompt box. The more specific you are, the better the results. Think “the impact of AI on the future of work” instead of just “AI.”
    4. Approve the Plan (or Tweak It): Deep Research will generate a step-by-step research plan. Take a quick look; you can approve it as is or make any necessary adjustments.
    5. Watch the Magic Happen: Once you give the green light, Deep Research gets to work. It scours the web, gathers relevant information, and refines its search on the fly. It’s like having a super-smart research assistant working 24/7.
    6. Behold the Comprehensive Report: In just minutes, you’ll have a neatly organized report packed with key findings and links to the original sources. No more endless tabs or lost links!
    7. Export and Explore Further: Export the report to a Google Doc for easy sharing and editing. Want to dig deeper? Just ask Gemini follow-up questions.

    Imagine the Possibilities:

    • Market Domination: Get the edge on your competition with lightning-fast market analysis, competitor research, and location scouting.
    • Ace Your Studies: Conquer complex research papers, presentations, and projects with ease.
    • Supercharge Your Projects: Plan like a pro with comprehensive data and insights at your fingertips.

    Gemini 2.0 Flash: Experience AI at Warp Speed

    If you thought Gemini was fast before, prepare to be amazed. Gemini 2.0 Flash is an experimental model built for lightning-fast performance in chat interactions. Here’s how to experience the future:

    1. Find 2.0 Flash: Locate the model drop-down menu in the Gemini interface (desktop and mobile web).
    2. Select the Speed Demon: Choose “Gemini 2.0 Flash Experimental.”
    3. Engage at Light Speed: Start chatting with Gemini and experience the difference. It’s faster, more responsive, and more intuitive than ever before.

    A Few Things to Keep in Mind about 2.0 Flash:

    • It’s Still Experimental: Remember that 2.0 Flash is a work in progress. It might not always work perfectly, and some features might be temporarily unavailable.
    • Limited Compatibility: Not all Gemini features are currently compatible with 2.0 Flash.

    The Future is Here

    Deep Research and Gemini 2.0 Flash are not just incremental updates; they’re a paradigm shift in AI assistance. Deep Research empowers you to conduct research faster and more effectively than ever before, while 2.0 Flash offers a glimpse into the future of seamless, lightning-fast AI interactions. Get ready to be amazed.