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  • Why the Markets Are Pricing AI Wrong: Gavin Baker on the July 2026 Selloff, GPU Spot Prices, Memory LTAs, and Nvidia’s Credit Wrapper

    Gavin Baker of Atreides Management returned to Invest Like the Best with Patrick O’Shaughnessy days after one of the strangest months the AI trade has ever produced. AI and semiconductor names fell 40 to 60 percent in a straight line while, by Baker’s account, not a single quantitative metric on the ground deteriorated. He spent the week in Silicon Valley hunting for a bearish data point and came back with almost nothing except credit. This conversation is the result: a detailed argument that the market has mispriced the gap between contracted compute and spot compute, that open source is growing the infrastructure pie rather than shrinking it, and that the one risk actually worth fearing is political rather than financial.

    TLDW

    Gavin Baker describes July 2026 as “2022 packed into a single month,” a violent AI and semiconductor drawdown that happened while hyperscaler operating cash flow accelerated from roughly 28 percent growth to 32 percent, or closer to 35 percent adjusting for unusual legal charges. His core claim is that the installed base of GPU compute is locked into long-term contracts priced far below the current spot market, so as those contracts roll off, compute reprices higher, operating cash flow accelerates, and the buildout can be funded internally rather than with the debt that widening credit default swap spreads and a poorly received Meta bond have made look expensive. He walks through each catalyst of the selloff: Meta renting out compute (misread as a capex cut), the open source capability leap from GLM 5.2 and Kimi K3 (misread as deflationary when a token is a token and costs the same flops, watts, and memory to produce), China acquiring a domestic deep ultraviolet lithography machine (real but 25 years behind), and rising real yields (the only genuine negative). He covers the game theory of breaking a memory long-term agreement in a world where market share is set by supply allocations, Nvidia’s new credit wrapper plus revenue share model and why it is misunderstood, the router and fine-tuning stack from Fireworks and Baseten that turns “ChatGPT wrappers” into defensible AI natives, continual learning as the one technical development that could disrupt training demand, SRAM accelerators for disaggregated inference, SpaceX as an underappreciated compute company with orbital ambitions, and his view that regulation, not fundamentals, is the biggest risk because the industry has done a terrible job telling its own story. He also makes an unusual observation about market structure: everyone now feeds news into Claude, and Claude has become a kind of Walter Cronkite for the stock market, collapsing the diversity of interpretation that normally keeps markets stable.

    Thoughts

    The load-bearing claim in this episode is the spread between contracted and spot compute, and to Baker’s credit it is falsifiable in a way most bull cases are not. He is not arguing that AI will be transformative or that demand feels strong. He is arguing something narrow and checkable: hyperscalers and neoclouds signed multi-year GPU contracts in 2024 and 2025 at prices that assumed a gentle decline, prices instead went vertical, and the installed base is therefore systematically under-earning. A startup rented several thousand B200s in the mid two dollars per GPU hour range and expects to pay just under four dollars for an identical cluster seven months later. If that repricing is real and broad, hyperscaler operating cash flow mechanically accelerates and roughly 700 billion dollars of projected credit demand evaporates. If GPU rental prices roll over and stay down for two consecutive quarters, the thesis is dead. That is the number to watch rather than any earnings headline. The caveat he steps past quickly is that the open source mix shift he describes as bullish does not eliminate margin, it relocates it, out of the frontier labs and down into the infrastructure layer. Excellent if you sell GPUs, power, and memory. Considerably more awkward for the labs whose projected cash flows are the reason anyone believes the compute gets paid for at all.

    The Claude as Walter Cronkite observation deserves more attention than it got, where it passed as a joke. Baker is describing a genuine change in market microstructure. Every institutional and retail participant now feeds the same news into roughly the same models, and while those models are probabilistic, they are not producing meaningfully diverse readings of the same headline. He connects this to Michael Mauboussin’s argument that a breakdown in diversity, not leverage alone, is what produces bubbles and crashes. If that is what happened in July, then the Japanese capacitor stock chart he cites, an entire three-year cycle compressed into six weeks before the fundamentals had even arrived, is not a curiosity. It is the signature of a market where thousands of participants share one interpretive engine. That makes drawdowns faster and deeper without making them more informative, which argues for holding through machine-generated narrative cascades rather than trading them.

    The middle of the conversation contains the most consequential business idea in it, and it is one that got almost no coverage during the selloff: memory long-term agreements and Nvidia’s credit wrapper are the same move executed at two different layers of the stack. Both trade near-term upside for durability. The memory companies stopped maximizing spot price and started signing prepaid agreements with floors and ceilings, and the reason those agreements will hold is that the penalty for breaking one has changed category. Apple could renege on memory pricing for years because its volume was overwhelming and it had no equivalent competitor. In a world with four buyers that matter and where AI market share is set by supply allocation rather than product quality, a supplier can answer a broken price agreement by breaking the volume commitment and handing your allocation to a rival, in an industry where oversupply is always followed by undersupply. Nvidia is running the same play one layer up. The credit wrapper with a revenue share above a price floor converts a cyclical one-time chip sale into a royalty on recurring compute revenue, financed on someone else’s balance sheet, which is a materially better business than selling hardware. It also widens the moat, because a startup accelerator pays more at the foundry, pays more for high bandwidth memory, and cannot finance its chips at Nvidia’s rate. Baker is right that this is misunderstood, and it is a strange thing for a stock at a ten-year-low forward multiple to be quietly doing.

    The technical material in the back half reveals an asymmetry worth naming. Baker treats two efficiency developments very differently. Continual learning and sample efficient learning, which several labs believe are close, would collapse the token budget required to produce a capable model, and he handles this by asserting that training asymptotes to a small but nonzero share of compute and that the outcome would be wonderful for the world anyway. SRAM-based accelerators for disaggregated inference, running prefill on one chip, attention on a high-memory chip, and the feed forward network on SRAM, he embraces enthusiastically as a return-on-investment improvement across the installed base. Both are efficiency gains. One is treated as neutral, the other as clearly positive, and Jevons paradox is doing all the work in both directions. That is probably correct given everything we have observed so far, but it is an assumption rather than a finding, and it is the assumption on which the entire “cheaper compute is bullish for compute” framework rests. Worth noting too that the SRAM disaggregation point is genuinely underdiscussed: those chips sit on older nodes and do not compete for leading-edge capacity, so they are additive supply rather than substitute supply.

    The final twenty minutes hold both the largest unpriced upside and the largest unpriced risk, and neither is in consensus estimates. On the upside, only the hyperscalers, CoreWeave, Crusoe, and SpaceX have ever brought more than 500 megawatts online in a single year, and SpaceX has done it fastest and cheapest. When it dumped a large block of compute into the market, the market absorbed it without a blip, which tells you more about demand than any survey. Baker’s sanity check on orbital compute is the sharpest reasoning move in the episode: Benchmark, from entirely outside the Elon ecosystem and without the benefit of internal launch costs, funded StarCloud at a real valuation, so the set of people who would all have to be wrong keeps growing. On the downside, regulation is the risk he names first and it is the one his own framework cannot arbitrage. New York’s data center moratorium is not a fundamentals problem, and no amount of operating cash flow acceleration fixes a permitting ban. His diagnosis is that the industry finds the benefits so obvious that it never learned to explain them, which is how a water usage figure overstated by four orders of magnitude became conventional wisdom. Proposing a foundation that buys World Series ad time is a tell about how far behind he thinks the industry is. Every other risk in this conversation is priced somewhere. That one is not.

    Key Takeaways

    • Baker characterizes July 2026 as “2022 in a month,” with AI names down 40 to 60 percent from their highs in a straight line while underlying fundamentals improved.
    • He spent the week in Silicon Valley explicitly hunting for a negative quantitative metric and found essentially one: third-party data suggesting Anthropic’s growth curve came slightly off trajectory, a data point Anthropic shareholders reportedly dispute.
    • Nvidia was trading at its lowest forward price to earnings multiple in ten years at the time of recording. The only cheaper moments were the DeepSeek shock and Liberation Day, both of which proved to be V-bottoms.
    • A low forward multiple means the market believes these companies are significantly over-earning. Baker’s counter is that they are under-earning because their installed compute is contracted below spot.
    • Combined operating cash flow at Microsoft, Meta, and Amazon accelerated from roughly 28 percent to 32 percent growth, or to about 35 percent after adjusting for an unusual quarter of legal and regulatory charges.
    • Nobody in 2024 or 2025 modeled old GPU prices going vertical in 2026. The bull case assumed a slow decline in rental rates and the bear case assumed a steep one.
    • A concrete example: a well-known startup rented several thousand Blackwell B200s in the mid two dollars per GPU hour range and expects to pay just under four dollars for an identical cluster seven months later, a 50 to 60 percent increase.
    • One inference cloud stated publicly that it plans to pay roughly 100 percent more for Blackwells when its current contract expires.
    • Neoclouds were often forced into below-market long-term contracts because they needed an offtake agreement to finance the GPUs in the first place.
    • Consensus models hyperscalers monetizing Blackwell and Rubin at roughly Ampere rates, two generations behind, producing about 1.3 to 1.4 trillion dollars of hyperscale operating cash flow. Assuming monetization merely at a discount to current Blackwell rates pushes that closer to two trillion and removes roughly 700 billion dollars of credit demand.
    • The credit concerns are real and undeniable: real yields are up, spreads have widened, credit default swap levels for the large buyers have blown out, and a recent Meta bond did not price where a Meta bond should price.
    • Baker’s response is that debt-fueled buildouts demand immediate repayment and unwind violently, which is what happened in the internet buildout, but this buildout is still overwhelmingly funded from operating cash flow.
    • If credit is not available, he argues the existing flops simply become more valuable, which is self-correcting rather than catastrophic.
    • The Meta selloff catalyst was a misread. Meta renting out compute was interpreted as excess capacity and a capex cut. Meta did not cut capex, and the actual motivation appears to have been demonstrating strong internal rates of return on a small slice of capacity ahead of a capital raise.
    • The open source panic was also a misread. Open source taking token share moves margin dollars out of the frontier model layer, but a token still requires the same flops, memory, and watts to produce, so infrastructure demand rises rather than falls.
    • Frontier tokens carry gross margins somewhere in the 80 to 95 percent range. Open source tokens might carry 30 percent. The customer’s savings come almost entirely out of that margin, not out of compute consumption.
    • Baker calls open source “dark matter to the public markets,” growing rapidly through GLM 5.2, Kimi K3, and Nvidia’s Nemotron, but nearly impossible for public investors to measure since it runs through private inference clouds.
    • Jensen Huang being the world’s loudest supporter of open source is itself evidence that open source is good for Nvidia’s business.
    • Enterprises that blow through their AI budget in three months set up a router, which cuts their spend but often increases total GPU hours consumed by shifting volume to cheaper open source tokens.
    • Adoption is happening in staggered waves: AI natives are all in and hiring very few humans, coastal public companies are optimizing, East Coast and non-coastal companies have barely adopted, and Europe is trying to regulate AI before using it.
    • Roughly 500,000 people worldwide use agentic AI, and perhaps half that number use it seriously, yet the world is already in an acute compute shortage. The relevant question is what happens at 100 million or 500 million users.
    • Token spend at the most AI-forward companies now runs 20 to 25 percent of total compensation spend, with individual examples at 30 percent and reports as high as 50 percent, against a roughly 25 trillion dollar global knowledge work market.
    • Founder-controlled companies are not conducting large-scale layoffs, which suggests the cash flow to pay for AI is expected to come from growth rather than from labor substitution.
    • Memory is the dominant variable in token economics. More memory per unit of compute yields more tokens out, which lowers cost per token, which is why demand has shown no negative elasticity to memory pricing.
    • Memory suppliers have shifted from maximizing near-term price to signing long-term agreements with prepayments, floors, and ceilings, trading short-term upside for durability.
    • Breaking a memory long-term agreement is now potentially fatal. With four buyers that matter at scale and market share determined by supply allocation, a supplier can respond by breaking the volume commitment and handing your allocation to a competitor.
    • This is structurally different from the Apple era, when a single dominant buyer could break pricing agreements without consequence.
    • Nvidia’s new model is best described as a credit wrapper with a revenue share triggered when GPU prices exceed a floor. It is not vendor financing, since a third party lends the money, and it could produce a very large cloud-scale royalty business quickly.
    • Baker thinks this model is badly misunderstood, meaningfully increases Nvidia’s revenue per gigawatt, and strengthens its competitive position against startup accelerators that pay more at the foundry, pay more for high bandwidth memory, and cannot finance their chips as cheaply.
    • Nvidia has taken equity stakes across the ecosystem, and Baker’s read is that every time they have not taken a stake it has proven to be a mistake.
    • The scenario that would genuinely frighten him: hyperscaler operating cash flow stops accelerating, forcing the buildout onto debt, or a sustained sharp contraction in GPU rental prices. Nobody he has spoken to says they have too many GPUs.
    • Continual learning and sample efficient learning are the technical developments most likely to disrupt training demand, and several new labs including Safe Superintelligence are focused on them. Baker still thinks training asymptotes to a small share of compute rather than to zero, and that the change would be enormously good for the world regardless.
    • Fireworks launched a product called Nexus that plugs into Claude Code, OpenAI Codex, or Grok in roughly three lines of code, ingests a customer’s data, applies reinforcement learning to a model, and routes queries appropriately.
    • This stack is what converts an alleged “ChatGPT wrapper” into a defensible company. Shifting 30 to 60 percent of token consumption to a customized open model on top of frontier orchestration produces better outcomes at roughly half the cost.
    • Cheap, capable open source models may actually inflate the value of the very best frontier model, since a 160 IQ orchestrator becomes more valuable when it has an army of cheap 120 IQ models to direct.
    • The inference clouds are growing almost as fast as the frontier labs did in their early days while burning very little cash, which is extraordinary by any conventional software metric.
    • China obtaining a domestic deep ultraviolet lithography machine is a genuine phase transition and should not be dismissed, but the technology is roughly 25 years behind extreme ultraviolet, and lithography progress is learning by doing that cannot be teleported through.
    • Baker considers regulation the biggest single risk to AI, citing New York’s data center moratorium as the first of many and describing the current environment as post-factual and post-logical.
    • The public narrative that data centers raise power bills, drain water, and destroy jobs is largely wrong. Behind the meter deals typically lower local electricity prices, and modern community agreements include hospitals, schools, police and fire stations.
    • The widely cited data center water figure originated in a published error overstating usage by roughly 10,000 times, since acknowledged by the author, which Baker likens to the decimal point error that created the myth that spinach is exceptionally high in iron.
    • He argues data centers are among the best things to happen to blue collar wages in his lifetime, with ongoing rather than one-time employment from maintenance, replacement, and upgrade cycles.
    • SRAM-based accelerators built on older nodes and free of high bandwidth memory constraints could substantially improve return on investment by allowing disaggregated inference: prefill on one chip, attention on a high-memory chip, and the feed forward network on SRAM.
    • SpaceX has improved fundamentally since going public, and Baker believes the market does not yet understand it as a compute company. Only the hyperscalers, CoreWeave, Crusoe, and SpaceX have ever brought on more than 500 megawatts of power in a single year, and SpaceX has done it fastest and cheapest.
    • A widely circulated report claims SpaceX intends to bring on eight gigawatts of compute in 18 months. Baker doubts the number but notes that at roughly 50 billion dollars of monetization per gigawatt, even a fraction of it dwarfs the current consensus estimate.
    • When SpaceX dumped a large block of compute into the market, it was absorbed without a blip, which Baker reads as one of the more bullish demand signals of the year.
    • Orbital compute feels more real every day. Benchmark funding StarCloud, from outside the Elon ecosystem and without access to internal launch costs, functions as a useful sanity check on the idea.
    • Dark horse names Baker flags for the next phase: Lip-Bu Tan, Lin Qiao at Fireworks, and Scott Wu at Cognition.

    Detailed Summary

    A Selloff That Contradicted Every Fundamental

    Baker opens by describing July 2026 as 2022 compressed into a single month. AI names fell 40 to 60 percent from their highs in a nearly straight line. What made the month unusual was not the magnitude but the absence of a legible cause. In 2022 the market feared recession, rising rates, and inflation. During the DeepSeek shock and Liberation Day you knew exactly what the market was reacting to. This time the fundamentals moved in the opposite direction from the tape. GPU availability tightened, GPU rental pricing rose, DRAM spot prices rose, and token growth accelerated. Baker asked Patrick, who had also spent the summer in Silicon Valley, whether he had heard a single negative quantitative metric or a single instance of deceleration. The answer was nothing.

    Part of the problem is visibility. Public markets cannot see Anthropic or OpenAI directly, and they cannot see the American open source inference clouds like Fireworks, Baseten, Modal, and Together that monetize inference. Everyone stares at the same chart of semiconductor cash flow rising while hyperscaler free cash flow falls, and that chart omits the private companies entirely. It also omits the repricing dynamic Baker considers the most important fact in the market.

    The Spot Versus Contract Gap

    In 2024 and 2025 every serious forecast assumed GPU rental prices would decline, with the only debate being how fast. Neoclouds locked in long-term contracts partly out of prudence and partly because they needed offtake agreements to finance the hardware at all. The result is a large installed base of contracted compute trading at a steep discount to today’s spot market. Baker’s argument is that as those contracts roll off, compute reprices higher even if spot itself declines from current levels, and that repricing flows directly into hyperscaler operating cash flow.

    The anecdotes are stark. A prominent startup rented several thousand B200s in the mid two dollar per GPU hour range and expects to pay just under four dollars for an identical cluster seven months later. One inference cloud said publicly it plans to pay roughly double for Blackwells at contract renewal. Baker’s read is that hyperscalers are therefore under-earning across the board, which is the exact opposite of what a ten-year-low forward multiple implies the market believes.

    Financing the Buildout and the Credit Question

    Credit is the one bearish input Baker concedes is real. Real yields have risen, spreads have widened, credit default swap levels have blown out across the large buyers, and a recent Meta bond did not price the way a Meta bond should. Sophisticated private capital investors told him this is just banks hedging commitments, but he acknowledges the optics are bad and the facts are undeniable. His concern is the classic capital cycle: debt-financed buildouts demand immediate repayment, so when supply and demand slip out of alignment the unwind is fast and brutal, exactly as it was in the internet buildout.

    The math he ran is the counterweight. Consensus effectively models hyperscalers monetizing Blackwell and Rubin at Ampere rates, two generations behind, producing 1.3 to 1.4 trillion dollars of operating cash flow. Assume instead that they monetize merely at a modest discount to current Blackwell rates and the figure approaches two trillion, taking about 700 billion dollars of credit demand off the table. Better cash flow also improves the credit ratios, which makes debt cheaper if they choose to use it. And if credit disappears entirely, the flops already installed simply become more valuable. Microsoft brought on a large slug of capacity in June that did not even appear in second quarter results.

    How the Month Actually Unfolded

    Baker walks the sequence of catalysts. First, Meta announced it would rent out compute, which the market read as excess capacity and an imminent capex cut. Meta did not cut capex. What Meta appears to have seen was SpaceX selling trading-optimized clusters into the market at an enormous premium to contracted rates, and the plan was likely to demonstrate strong returns on a small slice of capacity before raising equity capital and increasing capex. Shortly afterward Meta released its best model in a long time, overshadowed by a competing release but a clear signal it was not easing off.

    Next came the open source freakout. Kimi K3 arrived, the widely watched token index dipped and flattened, and the two were connected: the index captures mix, and a shift from expensive frontier tokens toward open source tokens looks like weakness even when total compute consumption is rising. Then China’s deep ultraviolet lithography news triggered a broad selloff in semicap equipment. Finally, rising real yields and widening spreads gave the market a genuine reason to worry. Baker’s summary is that with the sole exception of credit, every one of these narratives was factually wrong, and a friend at Fidelity described the winning strategy of the past three years as doing the dumbest, most superficial thing as fast as possible and cycling between them.

    Open Source as Dark Matter

    The most important conceptual argument in the episode is that a token is a token. Regardless of which model produces it, a token consumes the same flops, the same memory, and the same watts. Open source taking share therefore does not reduce compute demand. It transfers margin from the frontier model layer, where gross margins might be 90 percent, to open weights inference at perhaps 30 percent, and the resulting price decline drives elasticity in token volume. Since frontier labs and open source models both run on the same underlying cloud infrastructure at the same compute cost, the effect is to push margin dollars down into the infrastructure layer.

    Baker calls open source dark matter to public markets. It is real, it is accelerating on the back of capability leaps from GLM 5.2 and Kimi K3, Nvidia continues to push Nemotron closer to the frontier, and yet none of it appears in audited financials that public investors can underwrite. He also notes the tell that should have settled the debate: Jensen Huang is the world’s most vocal supporter of open source, which would be an odd position for the largest beneficiary of frontier concentration to hold if open source actually threatened the business. Baker adds a normative point, that a world with only one or two dominant frontier models charging 90 percent margins is not good for humanity, and that many models is the better outcome.

    Routers, Fine-Tuning, and the End of the Wrapper Insult

    The practical mechanism behind the open source surge is the router plus fine-tuning stack. Inference clouds have become genuinely good at supervised fine-tuning and reinforcement learning, so a company can take its proprietary data, customize an open weights model, put it behind a router, and have the router send most queries to that model while escalating to a frontier model for verification or harder work. The result is often slightly better outcomes at half the cost. Fireworks shipped a product called Nexus that connects to Claude Code, OpenAI Codex, or Grok in roughly three lines of code and handles ingestion, reinforcement learning, and routing.

    This changes the durability question for AI natives. Two years ago the criticism was that these companies were thin wrappers with no defensibility. Now a company with domain-specific proprietary data can train on it, own the model serving 30 to 60 percent of its tokens, and get off the frontier lab treadmill it previously had no choice but to accept. Baker points to Cursor, Harvey, and others leaning hard into this. He also raises the counterargument fairly: some believe that once a frontier model achieves recursive self-improvement it will serve every intelligence level more cheaply through distillation, leaving no room for open source. He does not dismiss it, but he thinks the proprietary data held by AI natives and the orchestration value of the single smartest model make the multi-model future more likely. Cheap 120 IQ models arguably make a 160 IQ orchestrator more valuable, not less.

    Where the Money Comes From

    The pushback Baker gets on X is fair: even if hyperscalers are under-earning, where does the customer revenue ultimately come from? Definitionally it must come from faster economic growth through productivity or from labor substitution. He sees labor substitution happening at AI natives, though not through firing. They simply never hire the humans, and gross profit dollars per full-time employee at these companies is vertical compared with prior startup generations. Token spend now runs 20 to 25 percent of total compensation spend at the most aggressive companies, with individual examples at 30 percent and reports as high as 50 percent, against a roughly 25 trillion dollar global knowledge work market.

    The encouraging signal is that founder-controlled companies, the ones most likely to move fast on efficiency, are not conducting large-scale layoffs once you adjust for pandemic-era overhiring. That suggests they see continued opportunity for people plus large token budgets rather than a straight substitution. Data from Cognition, Ramp, and Stripe indicates that companies spending the most on AI are growing meaningfully faster, though Baker acknowledges the skeptics’ point that these datasets do not control for industry.

    The Memory Supply War and LTA Game Theory

    Everything is currently in shortage, and Baker argues the constraint is energizing gigawatts rather than manufacturing. Turbine makers and diesel generator makers are ramping, old aircraft turbines are being stripped and reconditioned for data center power, and regulatory policy is moving favorably. The transition he says he got wrong is the shift, especially in memory, from maximizing short-term pricing to signing long-term agreements with customer prepayments, price floors, and price ceilings.

    The reason those agreements will hold is game theory. Memory is the axis around which everything else revolves, because more memory per unit of compute means more tokens out, which lowers cost per token, which is why demand has shown essentially no negative elasticity. Market share among the four buyers that matter (Amazon with Trainium, Google with TPUs, AMD, and an Nvidia bigger than all of them combined) will be determined for years by supply chain allocation. Break a long-term agreement to chase a lower price in an oversupply year and the supplier can break the volume commitment in return and hand your allocation to a competitor. Since oversupply in this industry is reliably followed by undersupply, that is a decision that can end a franchise. Apple could get away with this historically because its volume was overwhelming and it had no equivalent competitor. That world is gone.

    Nvidia’s New Playbook

    Baker finds Nvidia’s low multiple hard to reconcile with how thoroughly the current environment favors it. If chips need to be financed, nothing on earth is more financeable than an Nvidia GPU. If land and power are the constraint, Nvidia has been playing the matchmaking chess game well. On top of that they have rolled out what Baker describes as a credit wrapper with a revenue share that kicks in when GPU prices sit above a floor. It is not vendor financing, since someone else lends the buyer the money. What it does is give Nvidia a royalty on recurring compute revenue, which could amount to a very large cloud business built entirely out of royalties, while helping bridge the cash flow mismatch between an industry that has gone free cash flow negative and a supplier collecting all the cash.

    Asked what he would do as a memory CEO, Baker says he would do exactly what Nvidia is doing: approach GPU and accelerator buyers, participate in the credit wrapper, perhaps put up cash upfront to make lenders comfortable, and take a cut of ongoing revenue. He expects firms like Blackstone and Apollo are pitching variants of this to the memory companies already. He also thinks the arrangement quietly widens Nvidia’s competitive moat, since startup accelerator companies pay more at the foundry, pay more for high bandwidth memory, and cannot finance their chips at Nvidia’s rate. And he notes that essentially every time Nvidia has declined to take an equity stake in something, it has turned out to be a mistake.

    What Could Break the Thesis

    Pressed for the scenario that would flip him, Baker names two. The first is operating cash flow failing to accelerate, which would force the buildout onto debt and validate the credit bears. That outcome depends largely on whether the combined trajectory of Anthropic, OpenAI, Grok, Cursor, and open source keeps compounding. The second is a sustained sharp contraction in GPU rental prices. The market would react instantly, and it would mean the compute shortage had broken. As of the recording, not a single person he has spoken with says they have too many GPUs.

    The technical wildcard is continual learning and sample efficient learning. Many researchers believe both are close. A human learns effectively on something like 20 billion tokens while frontier models train on 300 trillion, so a model that could be trained on 10 trillion tokens and then learn efficiently in the world would represent a discontinuity in training demand. Baker thinks training will asymptote to a small but nonzero share of compute regardless, and that the development would be extraordinarily good for the world. He also notes Nvidia is deeply involved with essentially all of the labs pursuing it.

    China, Lithography, and Decoupling

    On China’s deep ultraviolet lithography machine, Baker holds both views at once. It is a genuine phase transition, comparable to going from having no propeller plane to having one, because they did not have it before and now allegedly they do. It is also roughly 25 years behind extreme ultraviolet, and lithography is learning by doing, so you cannot teleport through the required cycles. He suspects the market overreacted and that if it ever affects ASML’s order book it will be years out, by which time the market will have forgotten and rediscovered the concern several times.

    He is careful about certainty here. It is very hard for an American to have real clarity on what is happening inside China, the people there are extremely capable and work brutally hard, and they consider this existential for the country. There are unverified reports that an extreme ultraviolet machine was smuggled in, which he treats as noise. His larger point is that decoupling is now self-reinforcing on both sides, it is unfortunate, and neither side is going to stop.

    Regulation, Data Centers, and a Failure of Storytelling

    Asked for the worst thing that could happen to AI, Baker answers regulation without hesitation. New York’s data center moratorium feels like the first of many, and even deep red pro-growth states are telling the industry it is doing a poor job explaining itself. The political narrative among ordinary Americans is that data centers will raise electricity prices, drain water supplies, and eliminate jobs. Baker’s counter is that behind the meter deals generally lower local electricity prices, that community agreements now routinely include hospitals, schools, police stations, and fire stations rather than the old model of buying the fire department new trucks, and that the jobs are ongoing rather than one-time because of continuous maintenance, replacement, and upgrade cycles.

    The water claim is the clearest case of a myth outrunning the correction. An author overstated data center water usage by roughly 10,000 times, has acknowledged the error repeatedly, and the figure still circulates. Patrick offers the parallel of the spinach iron myth, created by a misplaced decimal point in an academic text and still believed 80 years later. Baker’s proposed remedy is blunt: a foundation or political action committee running ads during the Final Four, NFL games, and the World Series explaining what a data center actually does for a community, alongside the story of AI accelerating medical research and improving outcomes for people with serious illness. The people building this find the benefits so obvious that they assume everyone already knows, and they cannot process how divergent their view is from most Americans.

    SRAM Accelerators and Disaggregated Inference

    An underdiscussed development, Baker argues, is what happens when SRAM-based accelerators arrive at scale. These chips are not constrained by high bandwidth memory and are often built on older nodes, so they do not compete for the leading edge capacity that GPUs consume. Inference disaggregates into prefill and decode, and decode splits further into attention and the feed forward network. The holy grail is running prefill on a chip without high bandwidth memory, attention on a high-memory chip, and the feed forward network on SRAM, which nothing beats for that workload. Since workloads keep changing, no single chip can get the ratio of compute to high bandwidth memory to on-die SRAM permanently right, which is precisely the argument for disaggregation. Baker expects this to be strongly positive for the return on investment across the installed base and on new compute.

    SpaceX, Orbital Compute, and Dark Horses

    Baker does not think the market understands SpaceX as a company yet, and he considers it the most important new public company. The fundamentals have improved since the IPO, and the compute story is the part being missed. Only the hyperscalers, CoreWeave, Crusoe, and SpaceX have ever brought more than 500 megawatts of power online in a single year, and SpaceX has done it fastest and cheapest while building clusters customers actually like. When SpaceX dumped a large block of compute into the market, it was absorbed without a blip, which Baker treats as one of the most bullish demand datapoints available. A circulating Substack report claims eight gigawatts within 18 months. He doubts that figure and quotes it only because it is public, but at roughly 50 billion dollars of monetization per gigawatt against a 73 billion dollar consensus estimate, even partial delivery would overwhelm expectations. There is a well-known New York hedge fund short case built on spot compute prices falling 90 percent.

    On orbital compute, Baker says time at Starbase left him thinking it feels more real every day, and the Starship landing reinforced it. His sanity check is that Benchmark, from entirely outside the Elon ecosystem and without the benefit of internal launch costs, chose to fund StarCloud at a real valuation, with SpaceX partnering to provide the Starlink laser technology that orbital compute requires. As he puts it, maybe he is crazy, maybe Elon is crazy, maybe Benchmark is crazy, and maybe the SpaceX engineers are crazy too, but all of that being true simultaneously does not seem probable. Asked for dark horses who could become as consequential as the current giants, he names Lip-Bu Tan, Lin Qiao at Fireworks, and Scott Wu at Cognition. The episode was recorded at Benchmark’s offices, at the table where their dinners are held.

    Notable Quotes

    “I want to be scared. I don’t want to feel like a lunatic watching these stocks get cheaper thinking the expected forward returns are going up.”

    Gavin Baker, on why he spent the week in Silicon Valley hunting for bearish data

    “I would describe July as 2022 in a month.”

    Gavin Baker, characterizing a 40 to 60 percent drawdown in AI names that happened in a straight line

    “Have you heard a single negative quantitative metric about AI? A single instance of deceleration?”

    Gavin Baker to Patrick O’Shaughnessy, framing the central contradiction of the month

    “A token is a token, and you need the exact same amount of compute to make a token. It takes the same amount of flops, the same amount of memory, the same amount of watts.”

    Gavin Baker, on why the open source panic misread infrastructure demand

    “Open source is kind of dark matter to the public markets. It’s hard for public markets to measure it.”

    Gavin Baker, on why the fastest-growing part of inference demand is invisible in audited financials

    “Claude is kind of Walter Cronkite for the stock market and everybody just believes whatever it says. And by the way, it’s really smart, but it’s not always right.”

    Gavin Baker, on the collapse of interpretive diversity among investors

    “Nvidia is actually, as we record this, at its lowest forward PE of the last 10 years.”

    Gavin Baker, noting the only cheaper moments were the DeepSeek shock and Liberation Day, both V-bottoms

    “If you break your LTA and then in the next two or three years for any reason leverage shifts back to the memory guys, you’re out of business.”

    Gavin Baker, on why long-term agreements will hold through the next memory cycle

    “If you need to be able to finance the chips, and you do, nothing’s more financeable than an Nvidia GPU. Nothing.”

    Gavin Baker, on why the current environment favors Nvidia more than its multiple suggests

    “Data centers are in a lot of ways the best thing to happen for blue collar wages in my lifetime.”

    Gavin Baker, on the gap between the political narrative and the local economics

    “A lie could go around the world faster than truth gets out of bed.”

    Gavin Baker, on a data center water usage figure overstated by roughly 10,000 times that still circulates

    “One of Elon’s phrases is we specialize in making the impossible late.”

    Gavin Baker, on why he doubts the eight gigawatt figure without betting against SpaceX

    Watch the full conversation here: Why the Markets Are Pricing AI Wrong with Gavin Baker on Invest Like the Best.

    Related Reading

    • Invest Like the Best on Colossus the show’s home, where the full episode archive and transcripts live.
    • Atreides Management Gavin Baker’s firm and the vantage point behind these compute and semiconductor calls.
    • More Than You Know by Michael Mauboussin, the source of the diversity breakdown framework Baker invokes to explain why markets crash when everyone reasons the same way.
    • High Bandwidth Memory (Wikipedia) background on the memory technology that sits at the center of the long-term agreement game theory.
    • Fireworks AI the inference cloud whose routing and fine-tuning stack Baker credits with making open source models competitive for production workloads.

  • Ken Griffin on AI, the Golden Age of Entrepreneurs, and the Taiwan Chip Risk That Would Cut US GDP 8 Percent: Inside the Citadel Founder’s Goldman Sachs Great Investors Interview

    Ken Griffin, founder and CEO of Citadel, sat down with Goldman Sachs’ Raj Mahajan at the firm’s Apex Symposium (recorded June 2, 2026) for this episode of Goldman Sachs Exchanges: Great Investors. It is their third public conversation in seven years, and Griffin is unusually candid: about the Friday he went home “shocked and depressed” over AI, the agentic system inside Citadel that compresses six weeks of PhD-level work into two hours, why a Chinese move on Taiwan would throw the US into a depression within six months, and the one question every hedge fund investor should ask their GP.

    TLDW

    Griffin names his two proudest leadership calls: dragging Citadel back to the office five days a week before it was acceptable (citing Fed research that remote work has hurt young Americans’ employment more than AI has), and Citadel’s pandemic role, from getting the FDA to approve experimental COVID drug trials in 72 hours to shaping the incentive design behind Operation Warp Speed, which he credits with saving roughly half a million American lives. On markets, he explains why the S&P sits at all-time highs despite wars in the Middle East and Europe: US energy insulation, stunning Chinese oil demand destruction, and record corporate earnings. On AI, he distinguishes hype from reality (a dinner of multinational CEOs gave him five stories of “AI transformation,” none of which were actually AI), then describes the internal breakthrough that changed his mind: an agentic system that reads, reproduces, and out-of-sample-tests academic finance papers in 2 to 3 hours instead of 6 to 8 weeks. The consequences: no layoffs at Citadel, but competitive moats across the economy are being filled in at lightning speed, setting up a golden age of entrepreneurship. He covers the compute market (all available compute is utilized all the time; market makers now spend hundreds of millions a year), China’s lead in roughly 67 of 74 critical technologies, the Taiwan scenario in which losing TSMC chips cuts US GDP 8 percent in six months, an energy doctrine built on nuclear, natural gas, and building data centers (with their own generation) in America, his stress-test approach to tail risk (definable, tolerable, still in business), and hedge fund economics: the industry’s cost of capital is roughly risk-free plus 4 percent, which is why Citadel has returned $25 to 30 billion to its LPs.

    Thoughts

    The most useful thing in this conversation is Griffin’s two-sided read on AI, because he refuses to pick a lane. The paper-replication story is the cleanest documented example yet of AI eating not just white-collar work but masters-and-PhD-level work, from the man whose firm profits from that labor. Yet in the same breath he reports zero headcount reduction, because Citadel has more problems to attack than people to attack them. Both things are true at once, and he names the synthesis honestly: the individual firm gets more productive while every firm’s moat gets shallower. Most commentary picks either the doom frame or the productivity frame. Griffin holds both, and his conclusion (a golden age of entrepreneurship, startups running on a few AI systems instead of 30 to 40 employees) is the actionable part.

    His dinner-party anecdote deserves to be a standard reference. Five global CEOs effusing about AI transformation, and every single story was actually machine learning, optimization, or plain digitization. The C-suite cannot tell AI from technology at large, which means a meaningful slice of the “AI is transforming our business” narrative priced into the S&P is really a decade-old digital revolution wearing a new label. That is not a bearish observation, since the earnings are real either way, but it matters for anyone trying to figure out which companies actually have AI leverage and which have rebranded their IT budget.

    The Taiwan section is the starkest risk framing you will hear from someone who runs both a hedge fund and one of the world’s largest market makers. An 8 percent GDP contraction in six months is not a market correction, it is Boeing halting production, new cars stopping, and consumer electronics freezing simultaneously, because TSMC chips are in every high-end product made. What makes his version distinctive is the second-order point: in a Taiwan blockade, he does not expect unified Western sanctions. Europe’s membership on “team USA” is less clear than it was two years ago, and the Middle East will play Switzerland because China buys its oil. Investors should notice that his answer to “how do you hedge this?” is not clever derivatives, it is his stress-test doctrine: know the worst case, size exposures so the loss is definable and tolerable, and stay in business to fight back.

    Finally, the small structural details are where the conversation earns its Great Investors billing. Compute has become a commodity input like jet fuel, fully utilized at all times and allocated purely by willingness to pay, which quietly favors high-margin businesses and squeezes everyone else. Alternative data made the present transparent, so the remaining edge in stock picking is multi-year vision about which companies are building transformative products. And the hedge fund test he closes with is one any allocator can use tomorrow: is your GP in the asset management business or the performance business? Citadel returning $25 to 30 billion to LPs is what the performance answer looks like in practice.

    Key Takeaways

    • Griffin’s proudest leadership call was bringing everyone back to the office five days a week, extremely early and against the culture, because humans are social creatures who learn through apprenticeship and mentorship.
    • He cites a Fed paper on reduced employment among workers under 30: remote work turns out to be a more important factor in diminished opportunities for young Americans than AI.
    • At the start of the pandemic, a hospital-system CEO called Griffin because he could not get FDA approval for drug trials on ventilated COVID patients; Citadel’s team got experimental trials approved in about 72 hours.
    • The key insight behind Operation Warp Speed, which Griffin discussed at length with Jared Kushner, was an incentives fix: the US government paid pharma to manufacture vaccines before FDA results existed, collapsing time-to-market from months to days.
    • By his math, the country spent a few billion dollars on that risk, saved a few trillion dollars of GDP, and saved roughly half a million American lives.
    • The S&P is at all-time highs despite a Middle East war, a still-raging war in Europe, and a potential skirmish over Cuba, because the US is relatively shielded from the energy shock.
    • China’s oil demand elasticity stunned even Citadel’s commodities business, one of the largest in the world; that demand destruction plus episodic oil flows out of the region has kept crude near the low $100s instead of the nearly $200 most models predicted if the straits closed.
    • Citadel has been a huge user of machine learning since TensorFlow arrived roughly a decade ago; the current wave is an acceleration of a digital revolution already underway, not a clean break.
    • At a dinner two years ago, Griffin asked global multinational leaders to share how AI was transforming their businesses: he got four or five great productivity stories and not one actually involved AI. They were machine learning, optimization, and digitization.
    • In the C-suite the nuance between AI and technology at large gets lost, but bigger budgets and CEO enthusiasm are pushing through real projects with real bottom-line impact; US corporate earnings are at all-time highs and multiples have actually come down as a result.
    • The use case that sent Griffin home shocked and depressed: a Citadel team member built an agentic AI system that reads an academic finance paper, reproduces it, verifies the published results, and tests them out of sample in 2 to 3 hours on average.
    • That same replication work previously took a legion of young masters and PhD hires roughly six to eight weeks per paper; Citadel finds a few tradeable ideas a year this way, and a few ideas can be worth a lot of money.
    • The point he stresses: this is not just a white-collar job being automated, it is a master’s or PhD-level job, and AI is now cracking problems (like the 80-year-old math problem OpenAI solved) that seemed beyond its reach two or three years ago.
    • Despite the breakthrough there has been no reduction in headcount at Citadel: the firm has more problems to attack than people, so Griffin takes every productivity gain he can get.
    • The flip side is that competitive moats across corporate America are being filled in at breathtaking speed, which Griffin expects to produce a golden age of entrepreneurial activity.
    • His example: a startup that would traditionally need 30 or 40 employees now runs with just a few AI systems, letting entrepreneurs take on incumbents in ways impossible 5, 10, or 20 years ago.
    • Some workers face genuinely hard transitions (his example is English-to-German translators), and the country needs to figure out how higher education can retrain these people quickly.
    • Stock picking remains a timeless business with a similar skill set, but the market will increasingly reward multi-year vision about which companies are creating transformative products rather than skill at calling quarterly earnings beats.
    • Alternative data (Citadel has access to the credit card spending of millions of Americans) made the here-and-now transparent a decade ago; AI plus bright people now triage the present almost instantly, so relative value accrues to those who can see years ahead.
    • At Citadel Securities, transformer models continue a decade of ML-driven improvement in pricing and risk management, and the same is true at other leading market-making firms.
    • For all intents and purposes, all available compute in the world is utilized all the time; access is decided by who will pay the most, and the per-unit price has risen beyond what anyone reasonably projected two or three years ago.
    • Large market-making firms now spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year on compute; Griffin compares compute inflation to jet fuel and egg prices, a cost that high-margin businesses can bear and low-margin businesses cannot.
    • China leads in roughly 67 or 68 of the 74 or 75 most important technologies in the world, including solar, EV batteries, and multiple quantum fields, and has pulled ahead in published academic papers.
    • The drivers are structural: 1.4 billion people, an extraordinarily strong educational culture, and far more STEM graduates, producing exactly the human talent needed to win in a high-IP world.
    • China is no longer relegated to producing low-margin products designed in America, and Griffin calls that shift a threat to the American way of life; the answer is not tariffs but educating US youth to out-compete, out-innovate, and out-problem-solve.
    • If China takes Taiwan and the US loses access to Taiwanese semiconductors, the rough estimate is US GDP falls 8 percent in six months: a great depression in the blink of an eye, unlike any before.
    • The mechanism is concrete: Boeing stops making planes within six months, most new cars stop being manufactured, consumer electronics production freezes, because TSMC chips are in every high-end product made.
    • There are no winners in a Taiwan escalation: tanking the US economy would have draconian knock-on effects for China given America’s importance as an export market.
    • In a Taiwan blockade Griffin does not expect unified global sanctions against China: where you sit determines your exposure, Europe’s place on team USA is less clear than two years ago, and the oil-exporting Middle East will play Switzerland.
    • On energy, the US must re-embrace nuclear, with small modular reactors a big part of the story: nuclear has effectively no carbon footprint and one of the lowest mortality rates of any energy source ever used (hydro has killed magnitudes more people).
    • He punctures the clean-energy veneer: solar cells are often made in western China by burning coal, with roughly a seven-year energy payback, and carbon fiber wind turbine blades last 20 years then fill landfills because they do not break down. No truly clean solution exists until fusion or broader nuclear.
    • Until then, natural gas is America’s huge asset: decades of cheap supply, and one of the few things that has actually brought down US carbon emissions.
    • Data centers are going to get built somewhere, and Griffin argues it would be inane for America to end up dependent on foreign countries for them; his fix for NIMBY politics is to require data center builders to construct corresponding power generation, tied to the grid for reliability, rather than pushing costs onto consumers.
    • His hedging doctrine for complicated risks: run stress tests, know exactly how much you lose and where in the worst case, and keep exposures sized so the loss is definable, tolerable, and leaves you still in business and able to fight back. You will never hedge every tail event.
    • Hedge fund industry economics: the long-run cost of capital is roughly the risk-free rate plus 4 percent; underperform and capital flows out, outperform and it flows in, and inflows dilute alpha because alpha capacity is finite.
    • Citadel has returned $25 to 30 billion to its limited partners to keep return on equity high: Griffin’s job is to grow annual alpha capacity, and any capital beyond what the portfolio needs goes back to LPs.
    • The alignment test for allocators: the biggest investor in Citadel’s funds is Griffin and his partners, and every LP should ask whether their GP is in the asset management business or the performance business.

    Detailed Summary

    Return to Office and the Cost of Remote Work

    Asked what he is most proud of beyond the numbers, Griffin starts with Citadel’s early, countercultural demand that everyone return to the office five days a week. He frames it as a human capital decision, not a control decision: people learn through apprenticeship, mentors are critical to development, and the underdevelopment of talent from remote work has damaged the broader economy. He points to recent Fed research on falling employment among under-30s: remote work turns out to matter more than AI in diminishing opportunities for young Americans. Citadel not only brought its team back but publicly extolled the virtues of doing so, and Griffin believes history will be on his side.

    72 Hours to FDA Approval and the Warp Speed Incentive Design

    His second point of pride is Citadel’s pandemic chapter. As the first US COVID cases appeared, a former partner running a major New York hospital system called: he could not get FDA approval for experimental drug trials on ventilated patients facing imminent death, and believed only Griffin could make it happen. Citadel’s team, with decades of government experience, got approvals moving in about 72 hours. The second act was Operation Warp Speed, whose core idea Griffin discussed at length with Jared Kushner: pay pharmaceutical companies to manufacture vaccines before FDA results, so a positive result means days to market instead of the standard sequence losing three to six months. No company would spend billions producing vaccines that might be flushed down the sewer, so the US government took the manufacturing risk on unproven efficacy. A few billion dollars spent, a few trillion in GDP saved, and roughly half a million American lives.

    All-Time Highs in a World at War

    Griffin’s market picture is unsentimental: there is a war in the Middle East, a still-raging war in Europe, potential trouble in Cuba, and the peace both men grew up with is off the table. Yet the S&P sits at record highs. His explanation: America is relatively shielded from the war-driven energy crisis. China has curtailed oil demand with an elasticity that stunned even Citadel’s commodity desk, and episodic oil and LNG flows keep leaving the region, holding crude around the low $100s when most estimates had a strait closure producing nearly $200 a barrel. Meanwhile corporate earnings are at all-time highs, enough that multiples have actually compressed over the last 12 months.

    The AI Story CEOs Tell Versus the One That Is True

    Citadel has used machine learning heavily since TensorFlow arrived a decade ago, powering everything from radiology reads to self-driving cars across the economy, so Griffin sees today’s AI wave as an acceleration of an ongoing digital revolution. His favorite corrective: at a dinner with global multinational leaders two years ago, everyone was effusive about AI transforming their businesses, so he asked them to go around the table with specifics. Four or five genuinely impressive productivity stories emerged, and not one involved AI: they were machine learning, optimization, digitization, technology at large. The C-suite blurs the distinction, but the enthusiasm has unlocked bigger technology budgets and real bottom-line projects, which is part of why earnings are at records.

    The Agentic System That Shocked Him

    Then comes the story behind the famous “shocked and depressed” Friday. Citadel employs legions of young masters and PhD graduates to replicate academic finance papers: read the hypothesis, judge the work, reproduce results, and test whether the effect persists out of sample (does buyback activity predict outperformance, for example). Each paper takes six to eight weeks, and the process surfaces a few valuable ideas a year. A colleague built an agentic AI system that does the entire pipeline (read, reproduce, verify, out-of-sample test) in two to three hours on average. Griffin’s emphasis: this is not routine white-collar work, it is master’s and PhD-level work, and paired with OpenAI solving a math problem open for 80 years, it shows AI cracking problems considered out of reach two or three years ago. Notably, Citadel cut zero headcount on the back of the breakthrough; the firm has more problems worth attacking than people to attack them, so every productivity gain gets absorbed.

    Filled-In Moats and a Golden Age of Entrepreneurs

    The macro consequence Griffin draws is double-edged. Hold two thoughts at once: AI is reaching very high-level work in the job market, with some workers (translators, for instance) facing hard transitions that demand fast retraining through higher education. And simultaneously, the competitive moats of corporate America are being filled in at breathtaking rates. That means entrepreneurs can launch businesses at speeds impossible 5, 10, or 20 years ago: he mentions a startup running on a few AI systems where 30 or 40 employees would once have been required. He expects a wave of these stories over the next couple of years as founders use the technology to take on incumbents.

    The Future of the Stock Picker

    Griffin has called stock picking a timeless business, and he still sees a similar skill set for the portfolio manager of the future, with one shift in emphasis. Predicting quarterly earnings beats has gotten far harder over a decade as alternative data (credit card panels covering millions of Americans, telegraphing Starbucks and McDonald’s revenues) made the present transparent. Now bright people plus good AI triage the here-and-now almost instantly. The scarce, rewarded skill becomes vision: identifying which companies are building genuinely transformative products years before the market fully prices it.

    Compute Is the New Jet Fuel

    At Citadel Securities, which holds double-digit market share across equities, futures, and treasuries, transformer models extend a decade of machine learning gains in pricing and risk. The compute market backdrop is what Griffin calls breathtaking: essentially all available compute on Earth is utilized all the time, so access reduces to who will pay the most. Per-unit compute prices exceed what anyone reasonably projected two or three years ago, and large market makers now spend hundreds of millions of dollars annually. He treats it as straightforward input inflation, like jet fuel or eggs: high-margin businesses can bear it, low-margin ones cannot.

    China’s Technology Lead and the Taiwan Equilibrium

    Griffin states the cold reality: China is one of the most innovative, fastest-growing economies in the world, leading in roughly 67 or 68 of the 74 or 75 most important technologies (solar, EV batteries, several quantum fields) and now ahead in published academic papers. The foundation is 1.4 billion people, a culture with an extraordinary emphasis on education, and far more STEM graduates. China is no longer relegated to manufacturing low-margin products designed in America, and Griffin calls that a threat to the American way of life. His prescription is pointed: not tariffs, but educating American youth to out-compete, out-innovate, and out-problem-solve. Taiwan is the painful pressure point with no winner. If China takes Taiwan and the US loses TSMC chips, GDP falls an estimated 8 percent in six months: Boeing stops making planes, most new car production halts, consumer electronics freeze, a great depression in the blink of an eye. China would suffer draconian knock-on effects too. As an investor he thinks about position: sanctions in a Taiwan blockade would not be unified, Europe’s place on team USA is a genuine question mark now, and the oil-exporting Middle East would play Switzerland since China is its biggest customer.

    Energy Realism: Nuclear, Gas, and American Data Centers

    On powering AI, Griffin wants America to lead again in nuclear, with small modular reactors central: no meaningful carbon footprint and one of the lowest mortality rates of any energy source ever deployed (hydro has killed magnitudes more people). He challenges the superficial cleanliness of renewables: solar cells are often made in western China with coal power, requiring about seven years of energy capture to break even against the coal burned making them, and 20-year-old carbon fiber wind turbine blades do not break down and are already filling landfills. Until fusion or expanded nuclear, America’s real asset is natural gas: decades of cheap supply that has actually driven US emissions down. His data center position is blunt: they will get built somewhere, and depending on foreign countries for them would be inane, so build them in America. His answer to NIMBY politics: require data center developers to build corresponding power generation, tied to the grid for reliability, so the cost never lands on the American consumer.

    Tail Risk, Tolerable Losses, and Hedge Fund Alignment

    On hedging complicated risks, Griffin’s method is stress testing: if this happens, how much do we lose and where, and is that loss tolerable? You can never manage a portfolio for every possible tail event, but you can keep exposures sized so the worst case is definable and tolerable, leaving you still in business and positioned to fight back. On industry returns, he pegs the hedge fund cost of capital at roughly the risk-free rate plus 4 percent as the long-run equilibrium: underperformance drains capital, outperformance attracts it, and since recent outperformance keeps pulling money in, growing assets dilute alpha. That is why Citadel has returned $25 to 30 billion to LPs: alpha capacity is finite, Griffin’s job is to grow it, and excess capital goes back to investors to keep return on equity high. The closing advice is an alignment test: Citadel’s biggest investor is Griffin and his partners, and every allocator should ask whether their GP is in the asset management business or the performance business.

    Notable Quotes

    “Turns out that remote working is a more important factor to diminished employment opportunities for young Americans than AI.”

    Ken Griffin, citing Fed research on under-30 employment

    “We spent a few billion dollars as a country. We saved a few trillion dollars in GDP. We saved roughly half a million American lives.”

    Ken Griffin, on Operation Warp Speed’s incentive design

    “I got four or five incredible stories of how companies were achieving meaningful productivity gains. Not one involved AI.”

    Ken Griffin, on his dinner with global multinational CEOs

    “My colleague built an agentic AI system that would read a paper, reproduce it, verify the results that were published in the paper, produce the results out of sample, and do all this work in about on average 2 to three hours.”

    Ken Griffin, on the breakthrough that replaced six to eight weeks of PhD-level work

    “We’re likely to see a golden age of entrepreneur activity. Like entrepreneurs will be able to launch new businesses at breathtaking speeds and will be able to take on incumbents in ways that you just couldn’t do 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago.”

    Ken Griffin, on AI filling in competitive moats

    “All the available compute today is more or less utilized all the time. So the question is who’s willing to pay the most for it?”

    Ken Griffin, on the global compute market

    “The US loses access to Taiwanese semiconductor chips, our GDP falls by 8% in 6 months. Simply put, we go into a great depression in the blink of an eye unlike any we’ve seen before.”

    Ken Griffin, on the Taiwan scenario

    “We better damn well build the data centers in America because they’re going to get built somewhere in the world.”

    Ken Griffin, on energy policy and AI infrastructure

    “Definable, tolerable, still in business, still in a position to fight back from that point.”

    Ken Griffin, summarizing his approach to hedging tail risk

    “Are they in the asset management business or are they in the performance business?”

    Ken Griffin, on the question every hedge fund investor should ask their GP

    Watch the full conversation here: Ken Griffin on Goldman Sachs Exchanges: Great Investors.

    Related Reading

  • Gavin Baker on Orbital Compute, TSMC, Frontier AI Models, Anthropic’s Vertical Take Off, and the Coming Wafer Shortage

    Gavin Baker, founder and CIO of Atreides Management, returns to Patrick O’Shaughnessy’s Invest Like the Best for his sixth appearance. He calls the current AI moment the most extraordinary moment in the history of capitalism, walks through what Anthropic’s vertical takeoff in revenue actually means, lays out why orbital compute is closer than skeptics believe, dissects the TSMC bottleneck that may be the only thing standing between today’s market and a full-on AI bubble, and rates every hyperscaler on how they have positioned for a world where frontier model providers may stop selling API access altogether.

    TLDW

    Anthropic added eleven billion dollars of ARR in a single month, which is roughly the combined business of Palantir, Snowflake, and Databricks built over a decade. That is the setup. From there Gavin Baker covers the March and April selloff, the contrarian read that a closed Strait of Hormuz was actually bullish for American manufacturing competitiveness, why Anthropic and OpenAI multiples may be misleadingly cheap on an unconstrained run rate basis, why Elon Musk’s discipline on SpaceX valuation created a superpower of permanent access to capital, the practical engineering case for orbital compute as racks in space rather than Pentagon sized space stations, why TSMC’s capacity discipline is the single most important variable in whether the AI cycle becomes a bubble, what Terafab in Texas changes, why the Pareto frontier of AI models has flipped from Google dominance to Anthropic and OpenAI dominance in nine months, the shift from all you can eat AI subscriptions to usage based pricing and what that means for revenue scaling, Richard Sutton’s bitter lesson as the largest risk to the AI trade, why frontier tokens still capture an overwhelming share of economic value, the role of continual learning as the third great open question, why most new chip startups should not try to build a better GPU, why Cerebras did something different and hard, why disaggregated inference may extend GPU useful lives to ten or fifteen years and rescue the private credit industry, why being in the token path is the new venture filter, the new prisoner’s dilemma around releasing frontier models via API, an honest rating of Google, Meta, Amazon, and Microsoft, why personal safety is becoming a real AI era risk, and why he remains an AI optimist maximalist who believes this could be the next Pax Americana.

    Key Takeaways

    • Anthropic added eleven billion dollars of ARR in one month, more than the combined businesses of Palantir, Snowflake, and Databricks built across a decade. There is no precedent for this in the history of capitalism.
    • The SaaS and cloud revolution created between five and ten trillion dollars of value over twenty years. AI is replaying that compression on a timeline measured in months.
    • The March selloff was a drawdown driven by disagreement with price action, not invalidated thesis. That is the kind of drawdown an investor can lean into.
    • Deep Seek Monday in January 2025 was a similar setup. By the day of the selloff, AWS Asia GPU prices had already doubled, GPU availability had fallen, and it was obvious reasoning models would be vastly more compute hungry at inference. The market priced the opposite.
    • The Strait of Hormuz closing was actually positive for America. US natural gas (the primary input into US electricity, which feeds AI) fell twenty percent on Bloomberg while Asian and European natural gas doubled or tripled. American manufacturing competitiveness improved overnight.
    • The US is now the world’s largest producer and exporter of oil and gas. The economy is dramatically less energy intensive than in the 1970s. The shortage trauma comparison does not hold.
    • Tech as a sector traded as cheaply versus the rest of the market in early April as at any point in the last ten years, into the single most bullish moment for AI fundamentals on record.
    • Anthropic is dramatically more capital efficient than OpenAI, having burned roughly eighty percent less to reach a similar revenue scale. They have very different structural returns on invested capital.
    • Anthropic at roughly nine hundred billion for fifty billion of ARR (growing a thousand percent) is striking. Adjusted for compute constraint, the unconstrained run rate could be one hundred fifty to two hundred billion, putting the implied multiple closer to five times.
    • Claude Opus generates roughly seventy percent fewer tokens for the same question than previously, with token quantity tied to answer quality. Subscribers on flat-fee plans are getting a lobotomized model.
    • Elon Musk’s superpower is twenty years of making investors money. He never pushes valuation. SpaceX compounded low thirty percent per year for a decade because Musk treats fair pricing as a sacred covenant.
    • Capitalism will solve the watts shortage. The current bottleneck has shifted from chips and energy to zoning and political approval. Many capex decisions are paused until after the US midterms.
    • The watts shortage probably begins to alleviate in 2027 and 2028. Orbital compute solves it longer term.
    • Orbital compute is not Pentagon sized data centers in space. It is racks in space. A Blackwell rack is three thousand pounds, eight feet tall, four feet deep, three feet wide. SpaceX has shown a satellite roughly that size.
    • The satellites operate in sun synchronous orbit so solar wings (around five hundred feet per side) always face the sun and the radiator on the dark side always points to deep space.
    • Starlink V3 satellites already run at around twenty kilowatts. A Blackwell rack runs at one hundred kilowatts. SpaceX engineers express genuine confidence they have already solved cooling and radiator design at these scales.
    • Racks in space are connected with lasers traveling through vacuum, the same lasers already on every Starlink. SpaceX operates the world’s largest satellite fleet and, via xAI Colossus, the world’s largest data center on Earth.
    • Inference will move to orbit. Training will stay on Earth for a long time. Terrestrial data centers remain valuable for the rest of an investor’s career.
    • The wafer bottleneck is structural and political. TSMC is essentially Taiwan’s GDP, water, and electricity. The leaders see themselves as inheritors of Morris Chang’s sacred legacy and they do not behave like a Western public company.
    • Jensen Huang has never had a contract with TSMC. The relationship is run on handshakes and the assumption that things will be fair over time.
    • If TSMC did everything Jensen wanted, Nvidia could be selling two to three trillion dollars of GPUs in 2026 and 2027. TSMC’s discipline is the single largest factor preventing a true AI bubble.
    • Historically, foundational technologies always get a bubble. Railroads, canals, the internet. The current AI buildout is overwhelmingly funded out of operating cash flow, GPUs are running at one hundred percent utilization, and that is fundamentally different from the year 2000 fiber overbuild.
    • If one of Intel or Samsung Foundry catches up at the leading node, the other will follow, and TSMC’s discipline collapses. Watch TSMC capacity decisions to predict a bubble.
    • Terafab, the SpaceX and Tesla joint venture to build the world’s largest fab in America, has a partnership with Intel that grants access to fifty years of institutional foundry knowledge. The A teams at ASML, KLA, Lam Research, and Applied Materials will follow Elon’s reputation in hardware engineering.
    • The hiring playbook for Terafab includes building Taiwan Town, Japan Town, and Korea Town next to the fab. Recruit the engineers and import their families, their restaurants, and their staff.
    • Frontier tokens still capture an overwhelming share of all economic value created at the model layer. This is surprising and is one of the three big open questions for AI investing.
    • The Pareto frontier of intelligence versus cost has flipped. Nine months ago Google’s TPU dominated every point on the frontier. Today Anthropic and OpenAI dominate, with Grok 4.3 on the frontier and Gemini 3.1 hanging on.
    • Google’s conservative TPU V8 design (partly an attempt to reduce dependence on Broadcom and Nvidia) is the leading explanation for the loss of per token cost leadership.
    • AI pricing is shifting from all you can eat to usage based, mirroring the cellular and long distance industries. Cellular stopped being a great growth industry when it went all you can eat. AI just made the opposite move.
    • OpenAI and Anthropic together could exceed two hundred billion in ARR this year if compute keeps coming online and frontier token pricing holds.
    • The two hundred fifty dollar a month consumer AI plan is no longer enough to evaluate frontier capability. Enterprise plans with usage based billing are required because rate limits are now severe.
    • The three biggest open questions for AI investors are: violation of the bitter lesson via ASI or human ingenuity, whether frontier tokens keep commanding their premium, and when continual learning arrives.
    • Today’s continual learning is crude reinforcement learning during mid training on verifiable tasks. True continual learning means weights updating dynamically, like a human who learns the first time they touch fire.
    • Trying to build a better GPU is a losing strategy. Jensen will copy any one to three percent share design. Startups should target one percent share, do something different, and make it hard enough that Nvidia cannot fast follow.
    • Disaggregated inference (separating prefill and decode) opens new design canvases. Prefill is memory capacity bound. Decode is memory bandwidth bound. Each can be optimized independently.
    • Cerebras did something different and hard with wafer scale computing. Three generations of chips and real grit to get there.
    • Disaggregation of inference may stretch GPU useful lives to ten or fifteen years, dropping financing costs from low sevens to five or six percent, mathematically lowering the cost of the AI buildout and likely saving the private credit industry from its SaaS loan exposure.
    • Sellers of shortage outperform buyers of shortage. But owning the largest installed base of what is currently in shortage (hyperscaler CPU fleets, for example) is also a strong position.
    • Most of the economic value at the application layer of AI has been destroyed, not created. The exceptions are companies in the token path or in niches small enough that frontier labs ignore them.
    • Coding may be the shortest path to ASI. If you can write code, you can write code that does anything. Cursor, Cognition, and Anthropic correctly focused on it.
    • Jensen could probably get close to the frontier with his own Nemotron family of models whenever he wants. The fact that he chooses not to is a strategic decision about not commoditizing his customers.
    • The new prisoner’s dilemma in AI is whether frontier labs release their best model via API. If everyone agrees not to, Chinese open source falls behind. If anyone defects, the defector pulls ahead on revenue and resources, forcing everyone else to defect.
    • Google still owns the largest compute installed base. Without TPU’s prior cost advantage, this matters more. YouTube data has real value in a world of robotics. GCP is going crazy.
    • Meta deserves credit for becoming AI first internally faster than any other internet giant. Musa, their first MSL model, is impressively close to the Pareto frontier.
    • Amazon is strong because of Trainium and robotics driven retail P&L efficiency. Nova is better than it gets credit for.
    • Microsoft flinched on capex in early 2025 and lost position. Satya Nadella’s current decision to use Microsoft compute for Microsoft products rather than reselling to OpenAI is a courageous and probably correct call, even at the cost of an eight hundred dollar stock price.
    • The hyperscalers most engaged with startups are Amazon and Nvidia by a mile, followed by Google. Broadcom is the favorite ASIC partner. AMD, Microsoft, and Meta have minimal startup engagement and that will cost them as the best teams are now at startups.
    • Personal safety in an AI era requires a family or company safe word that cannot be socially engineered. Deepfake voice and video extortion at the speed of FaceTime is already feasible.
    • Ukraine is winning largely on the back of having the best battlefield AI outside America and Israel. Adversaries are starting to internalize what AI dominance means geopolitically.
    • An optimistic read is that this becomes a new Pax Americana, the way the post 1945 American nuclear monopoly was used to rebuild Germany and Japan rather than dominate.
    • AI cured a friend’s daughter’s rare disease by spinning up a research effort that identified a market drug capable of impacting her condition. That is the upside that keeps Gavin an AI optimist maximalist.

    Detailed Summary

    The most extraordinary moment in the history of capitalism

    Gavin’s framing of the current moment is unusually direct. Anthropic added eleven billion dollars of annual recurring revenue in a single month. The three highest profile SaaS companies of the last decade plus, Palantir, Snowflake, and Databricks, took a decade and tens of thousands of employees collectively to build the combined business that Anthropic added in thirty days. He has been investing through every major tech cycle and says there is no historical analog. Not the dotcom era, not the cloud transition, not mobile. This is its own thing.

    The market response, then, was peculiar. The NASDAQ sold off into the single most bullish moment for AI fundamentals on record. Tech traded at roughly its widest discount versus the rest of the market in a decade. Investors who said they wished they had bought into AI during 2022, during COVID, or during Deep Seek Monday got the same valuation setup again in early April, this time with an even clearer inflection.

    Why the Strait of Hormuz closing was secretly bullish for America

    One reason the macro fear in March may have been mispriced is that the same geopolitical event that drove the selloff was, in practice, a relative benefit to the United States. American natural gas, the input into American electricity, which is the input into American AI training and inference, fell roughly twenty percent. Asian and European natural gas prices doubled or tripled. The US emerged with sharply improved relative manufacturing competitiveness, which is exactly what the current administration cares about.

    The 1970s comparison does not hold. The US economy is dramatically less energy intensive, it is now the world’s largest producer and largest exporter of oil and gas, and there are no shortages, only price moves. That backdrop made it easier for disciplined investors to stay focused on AI fundamentals through the volatility.

    Anthropic and OpenAI valuations on an unconstrained run rate

    Anthropic at roughly nine hundred billion for fifty billion of ARR sounds rich until you adjust for the fact that the company is severely compute constrained. Gavin estimates that, unconstrained, Anthropic might be at one hundred fifty to two hundred billion in run rate revenue, putting the implied multiple closer to five times. He also points out that Claude Opus now generates roughly seventy percent fewer tokens for the same question than it used to. Token quantity correlates with answer quality, and Anthropic is rate limiting and shrinking outputs to ration capacity across its user base.

    Anthropic and OpenAI are also structurally very different. Anthropic has burned around eighty percent less cash than OpenAI to reach a comparable revenue scale. That implies very different long term returns on invested capital, though OpenAI has done a better job locking in compute and Sarah Friar is one of the most exceptional CFOs Gavin has worked with.

    Why neither lab is raising at a three trillion dollar valuation

    The answer Gavin gives is that both labs are deliberately leaving valuation on the table the way Elon has done for two decades. SpaceX compounded at low thirty percent annually for a decade because Elon never pushed price. The result is a permanent superpower of access to capital. Investors trust him because they have made money with him for twenty years. That is a moat that compounds with every round.

    Anthropic could probably raise at a one hundred percent premium to its rumored latest mark. They are choosing not to. In an uncertain world (Ukraine, Russia, Iran, Taiwan), preserving the ability to raise more capital later at fair prices is more valuable than maximizing this round.

    Watts and wafers, the two real constraints

    Capitalism is solving the watts problem. The leading PE infrastructure investors now say zoning and political approval, not chips or energy, are the gating factors. Companies are deferring big capex announcements until after the US midterms. Turbine capacity is being doubled at the manufacturers. Companies like Boom Aerospace are repurposing jet engines for grid use. Watts probably ease meaningfully in 2027 and 2028 and then orbital compute does the rest.

    Wafers are the harder problem because they live in Taiwan, run on handshakes, and depend on a corporate culture that does not respond to public market incentives. TSMC is essentially the GDP, water consumption, and electricity consumption of Taiwan. Its leadership treats the company as the legacy of Morris Chang. The Silicon Shield doctrine is real and internal.

    Orbital compute as racks in space

    The biggest mental update Gavin asks listeners to make is to stop picturing data centers in space as Pentagon sized space stations. A Blackwell rack is three thousand pounds and roughly the size of a refrigerator. SpaceX has shown a concept satellite of about that size. Solar wings extend five hundred feet to each side and the radiator extends hundreds of feet behind, both possible because the orbit is sun synchronous and the orientation is fixed relative to the sun.

    SpaceX engineers Gavin has spoken to at Starbase express genuine confidence that they have solved cooling at these power levels. They have. Starlink V3 satellites already operate at twenty kilowatts. A Blackwell rack is one hundred kilowatts. The same company operates the world’s largest satellite fleet and the world’s largest data center on Earth via xAI Colossus. The racks are connected to each other with lasers traveling through vacuum, technology already deployed in every Starlink. The naysayers, Gavin observes, are armchair skeptics and Larry Ellison’s response (he is out there landing rockets, no one else is) is the right frame.

    Terafab in Texas and the threat to TSMC’s discipline

    Terafab, the SpaceX and Tesla joint venture, intends to be the largest fab in the world. The partnership with Intel grants access to fifty years of foundry institutional knowledge, allowing Terafab to start three to five quarters behind the leading node rather than fifteen years behind. The A teams at the semicap equipment companies (ASML, KLA, Lam Research, Applied Materials) will follow Elon’s reputation in hardware engineering the same way they followed TSMC twenty years ago when Intel stumbled.

    The talent strategy is the part most observers underestimate. Recruit the best engineers globally, then import their families, their restaurants, their staff. Build Taiwan Town, Japan Town, and Korea Town next to the fab. Optimize the human experience for the people whose work matters. Intel and Samsung do not think that way.

    Bubble watch and the year 2000 comparison

    Every foundational technology in modern history has had a bubble. Railroads, canals, the internet. Carlota Perez documented why. Markets correctly identify the importance, diversity of opinion collapses, supply gets ahead of demand, the bubble crashes. The current cycle has two important differences. The buildout is overwhelmingly funded out of operating cash flow, not debt. Every GPU is running at one hundred percent utilization, while at the peak of the fiber bubble ninety nine percent of fiber was unused.

    TSMC discipline is the single largest reason a bubble has not formed. If Jensen could buy everything TSMC could theoretically make, Nvidia could sell two to three trillion dollars of GPUs in 2026 and 2027. At some point that becomes more than the market can absorb. If Intel or Samsung Foundry catches up at the leading node, the other will too. TSMC’s pricing discipline collapses and the bubble starts.

    The Pareto frontier and the loss of Google’s cost advantage

    The most important chart in AI is the Pareto frontier of model intelligence versus per token cost. Nine months ago, Google’s TPU based models dominated every point on it. OpenAI, Anthropic, and xAI sat inside the frontier. Today the frontier is dominated by Anthropic and OpenAI, with Grok 4.3 on the frontier and Gemini 3.1 hanging on by subsidization more than economics. The most likely cause is Google’s conservative TPU V8 design, an attempt to reduce dependence on Broadcom and Nvidia that sacrificed per token economics.

    The bitter lesson, frontier tokens, and continual learning

    Three open questions dominate AI investing. The first is whether Richard Sutton’s bitter lesson (more compute beats human algorithmic cleverness) gets violated by ASI itself optimizing for efficiency. Closer observers of AI are more skeptical of a violation. Gavin thinks ASI’s first move will be to make itself more efficient and more resourced, which is technically a temporary violation.

    The second is whether frontier tokens keep capturing the overwhelming share of economic value at the model layer. Today they do, surprisingly. Gemini 3.1 Pro was mindblowing nine months ago and is intolerable today. The third is when continual learning arrives. Today’s models need a million fire touches to learn what a human learns from one. True continual learning would mean dynamic weight updates in real time and would produce a fast takeoff.

    From all you can eat to usage based AI pricing

    AI is shifting from flat fee plans to usage based pricing. The historical analogy is cellular and long distance. Both stopped being great growth industries when they went all you can eat. AI just made the opposite move. The consequence is that flat fee subscribers, even on premium consumer plans, get a rate limited and token throttled version of the frontier model. Enterprise plans with usage based billing are now required to evaluate true capability. Gavin thinks the combination of new compute coming online and usage based pricing is what gets OpenAI and Anthropic past two hundred billion in combined ARR this year.

    Chip startups, prefill decode disaggregation, and Cerebras

    Trying to build a better GPU is the wrong move. The four scaled players (Nvidia, AMD, Trainium, TPU) have copy capability for any one to three percent share design that looks attractive. The good news for startups is that disaggregated inference (separating prefill and decode) opens a richer design canvas. Prefill is memory capacity bound. Decode is memory bandwidth bound. Each can be optimized independently. Andrew Fox’s analogy is a British naval ship of the eighteenth century. Prefill is loading the cannon. Decode is firing it.

    Cerebras is the model. Wafer scale computing is genuinely different and genuinely hard. It took three generations of chips to get right. Andrew Feldman and his team had the grit to keep going through chip one being a failure. The design has a high ratio of on chip compute and memory relative to shoreline IO, which is why Cerebras is now experimenting with putting an optical wafer on top of the compute wafer to solve scale out.

    GPU useful lives and the rescue of private credit

    One of the strongest claims in the conversation is that disaggregated inference will stretch GPU useful lives to ten or fifteen years. The skeptical narrative (GPUs are obsolete in two years, companies are cooking their depreciation books) is wrong. You can put a Cerebras system or Groq LPU in front of older Hopper or Ampere parts, use them only for prefill, and run them until they physically melt. Private credit, which is in pain from SaaS loans and which underwrote GPU loans on three to four year lives, may be saved by this.

    If GPU financing rates can come down from low sevens to five or six percent, the mathematics of the AI buildout improves materially. That is a structural tailwind that compounds for years.

    The application layer, the token path, and a new prisoner’s dilemma

    Trillions of dollars of value have been destroyed at the application layer, not created. Cursor and Cognition are the rare scaled exceptions, and they got there by focusing on coding very early. As Amjad Masad noted, coding is plausibly the shortest path to ASI because a coding agent can write itself into any new domain. Jamin Ball’s frame is that the new venture filter is whether the company is in the token path. Data Bricks is. Most application layer startups are not.

    Jensen could probably get close to the frontier with Nemotron whenever he wants, and the strategic question of whether to do that is a new prisoner’s dilemma. If every frontier lab agrees not to release best models via API, Chinese open source falls steadily behind. If anyone defects, the defector gains revenue and resources, and everyone else has to defect. The same dynamic exists between TSMC, Intel, and Samsung. If Nvidia or AMD ever truly used an alternative foundry, that foundry would catch up rapidly.

    Rating the hyperscalers

    Google has the largest compute installed base, the YouTube data that matters in a robotics world, and a search business that prints. Their loss of TPU cost leadership is the surprise of the year. If Google IO in five days does not produce a leapfrog model, the Nvidia centric narrative gets even stronger.

    Meta deserves real credit. Zuckerberg made Meta AI first internally faster than any other internet giant, paid up for the talent contracts when no one else would, and shipped Musa as a first model from MSL that is close to the Pareto frontier. Amazon is well positioned on Trainium, robotics in retail, and a Nova model line that is better than it gets credit for. Microsoft flinched on capex in early 2025 and lost position. Satya Nadella’s current decision to use Microsoft compute for Copilot rather than reselling to OpenAI is courageous and probably correct, even at the cost of stock price.

    The most interesting cross hyperscaler metric is startup engagement. Nvidia and Amazon engage deeply with startups. Google is next. Broadcom is the favored ASIC partner. AMD, Microsoft, and Meta have minimal startup engagement, which Gavin believes will cost them as the best teams now sit at startups.

    Personal safety, geopolitics, and the Pax Americana case

    The closing section turns darker. Personal safety in an AI era requires a family or company safe word that cannot be socially engineered. Deepfake voice and video extortion via something that looks exactly like your child calling on FaceTime is already feasible. Political violence against AI leaders is a real concern. Geopolitically, Ukraine is winning largely because it has the best battlefield AI outside America and Israel. How adversaries respond to that asymmetry is the next great variable.

    Gavin’s optimistic frame is the Pax Americana. After 1945 the US had a nuclear monopoly and could have controlled the world. Instead it rebuilt Germany and Japan, both of which became the most reliable American allies for the next eighty years. If AI dominance plays out similarly, this is a generationally positive story rather than a destabilizing one. The personal anecdote that closes the conversation is a friend whose daughter was diagnosed with a rare genetic condition. He spun up agents, identified a drug already on the market that addresses her mutation, and her life is immeasurably different because of AI. That is the upside.

    Thoughts

    The Anthropic eleven billion in a month framing is the kind of stat that resets priors. The right way to interpret it is not as a one off but as a measure of how fast value can compound when the underlying technology improves on a curve steeper than the ability of the rest of the economy to absorb it. The skeptical question is whether that ARR is durable or whether it is heavily tied to a customer base of other AI companies that are themselves on a single venture funded year of runway. The bullish answer is that frontier coding, frontier research, and frontier enterprise tasks are not going to stop being valuable, and Anthropic is the best at all three. Both can be true. The number is still extraordinary.

    The argument that TSMC discipline is the only thing preventing a bubble is the analytically tightest part of the conversation. The implied trade is to watch TSMC capacity additions like a hawk and to be more, not less, cautious if Intel Foundry or Samsung Foundry ever announce real share at the leading node. The Terafab thesis is more speculative but more interesting. If Elon’s talent recruiting playbook works and the Intel partnership gives Terafab a real seat at the table within five years, the geometry of the global semiconductor industry shifts in a way that is bullish for American manufacturing, bullish for power and water infrastructure in Texas, and ambiguous for TSMC itself.

    The Pareto frontier discussion deserves more attention than it usually gets. Pricing leadership in AI is not a vanity metric. It determines who can subsidize free tier usage, who can absorb compute shortages, who can ship cheaper enterprise plans, and ultimately whose model becomes the default for any given workload. Google losing per token leadership in nine months is one of the most under analyzed events in the sector and it explains a lot about why Anthropic and OpenAI are growing the way they are. If Google IO does not produce a leapfrog model, the implied verdict on TPU V8 design choices gets a lot harsher.

    The application layer destruction point is worth sitting with. Founders building on top of frontier models are competing in a world where the model itself moves faster than any moat they can build, where the model lab can absorb their niche if it gets interesting, and where the only protection is either deep token path integration or a niche so small the lab does not bother. That is a much harsher venture environment than the early SaaS era. The compensating opportunity is that one human can now run a hundred agents, so the ceiling on what a small team can build is correspondingly higher. The bet is that productivity per founder rises faster than competitive pressure from the labs. We will find out.

    The orbital compute pitch is the section that will polarize listeners. The naive read is that this is science fiction. The closer read is that every component (sun synchronous orbit, laser interconnect, twenty kilowatt satellite buses, ten thousand satellite manufacturing cadence, full rocket reusability) already exists. The remaining engineering problems are repair, maintenance, and radiator scale, all of which are real but tractable on a five to ten year horizon. The strategic implication is that the political and zoning ceiling on terrestrial data centers becomes less binding if orbital compute is a credible alternative for inference workloads. The investor implication is that being short the watts and cooling complex on a five year horizon is a real trade, not a meme.

    Watch the full conversation here.

  • Jensen Huang on Nvidia’s Supply Chain Moat, TPU Competition, China Export Controls, and Why Nvidia Will Not Become a Cloud (Dwarkesh Podcast Summary)

    TLDW (Too Long, Didn’t Watch)

    Jensen Huang sat down with Dwarkesh Patel for over 90 minutes covering Nvidia’s supply chain dominance, the TPU threat, why Nvidia will not become a hyperscaler, whether the US should sell AI chips to China, and why Nvidia does not pursue multiple chip architectures at once. Jensen framed Nvidia’s entire business as transforming “electrons into tokens” and argued that Nvidia’s real moat is not any single technology but the full stack ecosystem it has built over two decades. He was blunt about his regret over not investing in Anthropic and OpenAI earlier, passionate about keeping the American tech stack dominant worldwide, and dismissive of the idea that China’s chip industry can be meaningfully contained through export controls.

    Key Takeaways

    1. Nvidia’s moat is the ecosystem, not the chip. Jensen repeatedly emphasized that Nvidia’s competitive advantage comes from CUDA, its massive installed base, its deep partnerships across the entire supply chain, and the fact that it operates in every cloud. The moat is not a single product but an interlocking system that took 20+ years to build.

    2. Supply chain bottlenecks are temporary, energy bottlenecks are not. Jensen argued that CoWoS packaging, HBM memory, EUV capacity, and logic fabrication bottlenecks can all be resolved in two to three years with the right demand signal. The real constraint on AI scaling is energy policy, which takes far longer to fix.

    3. TPUs and ASICs are not an existential threat to Nvidia. Jensen was emphatic that no competitor has demonstrated better price-performance or performance-per-watt than Nvidia, and challenged TPU and Trainium to prove otherwise on public benchmarks like InferenceMAX and MLPerf. He described Anthropic as a “unique instance, not a trend” for TPU adoption.

    4. Jensen regrets not investing in Anthropic and OpenAI earlier. He admitted he did not deeply internalize how much capital AI labs needed and that traditional VC funding was not sufficient for companies at that scale. He described this as a clear miss, though he said Nvidia was not in a position to make multi-billion dollar investments at the time.

    5. Nvidia will not become a hyperscaler. Jensen’s philosophy is “do as much as needed, as little as possible.” Building cloud infrastructure is something other companies can do, so Nvidia supports neoclouds like CoreWeave, Nebius, and Nscale instead of competing with them. Nvidia invests in ecosystem partners rather than vertically integrating into cloud services.

    6. Jensen is strongly against US chip export controls on China. This was the longest and most heated segment of the interview. Jensen argued that China already has abundant compute, energy, and AI researchers, and that export controls have accelerated China’s domestic chip industry while causing the US to concede the world’s second-largest technology market. He compared the situation to how US telecom policy allowed Huawei to dominate global telecommunications.

    7. AI will cause software tool usage to skyrocket, not collapse. Jensen pushed back on the narrative that AI will commoditize software companies. He argued that agents will use existing tools at massive scale, causing the number of instances of products like Excel, Synopsys Design Compiler, and other enterprise tools to grow exponentially.

    8. Nvidia does not pick winners among AI labs. Jensen explained that Nvidia invests across multiple foundation model companies simultaneously and refuses to favor any single one. He cited his own company’s unlikely survival story as the reason for this humility: Nvidia’s original graphics architecture was “precisely wrong” and would have been counted out by anyone picking winners.

    9. Nvidia added Groq for premium token economics. Nvidia recently acquired Groq and is folding it into the CUDA ecosystem because the market is now segmenting into different token tiers. Some customers will pay premium prices for faster response times even at lower throughput, creating a new segment of the inference market.

    10. Without AI, Nvidia would still be very large. Jensen was clear that accelerated computing, not AI specifically, is the foundational mission of the company. Molecular dynamics, quantum chemistry, computational lithography, data processing, and physics simulation all benefit from GPU acceleration regardless of deep learning.

    Detailed Summary

    Nvidia’s Real Business: Electrons to Tokens

    Jensen opened the conversation by reframing Nvidia’s entire value proposition. When Dwarkesh suggested that Nvidia is fundamentally a software company that sends a GDS2 file to TSMC for manufacturing, Jensen pushed back hard. He described Nvidia’s job as transforming electrons into tokens, with everything in between representing an “incredible journey” of artistry, engineering, science, and invention. He said the transformation is far from deeply understood and the journey is far from over, making commoditization unlikely.

    Jensen described Nvidia as operating a philosophy of doing “as much as necessary and as little as possible.” Whatever Nvidia does not need to do itself, it partners with someone else and makes it part of the broader ecosystem. This is why Nvidia has what Jensen called probably the largest ecosystem of partners in the industry, spanning the full supply chain upstream and downstream, application developers, model makers, and all five layers of the AI stack.

    On the question of whether AI will commoditize software companies, Jensen offered a contrarian take. He argued that agents are going to use software tools at unprecedented scale, meaning the number of instances of products like Excel, Cadence design tools, and Synopsys compilers will skyrocket. Today the bottleneck is the number of human engineers. Tomorrow, those engineers will be supported by swarms of agents exploring design spaces and using the same tools humans use today. Jensen said the reason this has not happened yet is simply that the agents are not good enough at using tools. That will change.

    The Supply Chain Moat

    Dwarkesh pressed Jensen on Nvidia’s reported $100 billion (and potentially $250 billion) in purchase commitments with foundries, memory manufacturers, and packaging companies. The question was whether Nvidia’s real moat for the next few years is simply locking up scarce upstream components so that no competitor can get the memory and logic they need to build alternative accelerators.

    Jensen confirmed this is a significant advantage but framed it differently. He said Nvidia has made enormous explicit and implicit commitments upstream. The implicit commitments matter just as much: Jensen personally meets with CEOs across the supply chain to explain the scale of the coming AI industry, convince them to invest in capacity, and assure them that Nvidia’s downstream demand is large enough to justify that investment. Nvidia’s GTC conference serves this purpose too, bringing the entire ecosystem together so upstream suppliers can see downstream demand and vice versa.

    Jensen described a process of systematically “prefetching bottlenecks” years in advance. CoWoS advanced packaging was a major bottleneck two years ago, but Nvidia swarmed it with repeated doubling of capacity until TSMC recognized it as mainstream computing technology rather than a specialty product. More recently, Nvidia has invested in the silicon photonics ecosystem through partnerships with Lumentum and Coherent, invented new packaging technologies, licensed patents to keep the supply chain open, and even invested in new testing equipment like double-sided probing.

    When Dwarkesh asked about the ultimate physical bottlenecks, Jensen surprised him. The hardest bottleneck to solve is not CoWoS or HBM or EUV machines. It is plumbers and electricians needed to build data centers. Jensen used this as a launching point to criticize “doomers” who discourage people from pursuing careers in software engineering or radiology, arguing that scaring people out of these professions creates the real bottlenecks.

    On EUV and logic scaling specifically, Jensen was optimistic. He said no supply chain bottleneck lasts longer than two to three years. Once you can build one of something, you can build ten, and once you can build ten, you can build a million. The key is a clear demand signal. If TSMC is convinced of the demand, ASML will produce enough EUV machines. Meanwhile, Nvidia continues to improve computing efficiency by 10x to 50x per generation through architecture, algorithms, and system design.

    The TPU Question

    Dwarkesh pushed hard on whether Google’s TPUs represent a real threat, noting that two of the top three AI models (Claude and Gemini) were trained on TPUs. Jensen drew a sharp distinction between what Nvidia builds and what a TPU is. Nvidia builds accelerated computing, which serves molecular dynamics, quantum chromodynamics, data processing, fluid dynamics, particle physics, and AI. A TPU is a tensor processing unit optimized for matrix multiplies. Nvidia’s market reach is far greater than any TPU or ASIC can possibly have.

    Jensen emphasized programmability as Nvidia’s core architectural advantage. If you want to invent a new attention mechanism, build a hybrid SSM model, fuse diffusion and autoregressive techniques, or disaggregate computation in a novel way, you need a generally programmable architecture. The only way to achieve 10x or 100x performance leaps (versus the roughly 25% per year from Moore’s Law) is to fundamentally change the algorithm, and that requires the flexibility CUDA provides.

    On the specific question of whether hyperscalers with huge engineering teams can simply write their own kernels and bypass CUDA, Jensen acknowledged they do write custom kernels but argued that Nvidia’s engineers still routinely deliver 2x to 3x speedups when they optimize a partner’s stack. He described Nvidia’s GPUs as “F1 racers” that anyone can drive at 100 mph, but extracting peak performance requires deep architectural expertise. Nvidia uses AI itself to generate many of its optimized kernels.

    Jensen was particularly blunt about public benchmarks. He pointed to Dylan Patel’s InferenceMAX benchmark and said neither TPU nor Trainium has been willing to demonstrate their claimed performance advantages on it. He said Nvidia’s performance-per-TCO is the best in the world, “bar none,” and challenged anyone to prove otherwise.

    Regarding Anthropic’s multi-gigawatt deal with Broadcom and Google for TPUs, Jensen called it “a unique instance, not a trend.” He said without Anthropic, there would be essentially no TPU growth and no Trainium growth. He traced this back to his own mistake: when Anthropic and OpenAI needed multi-billion dollar investments from their compute suppliers to get off the ground, Nvidia was not in a position to provide that capital. Google and AWS were, and in return, Anthropic committed to using their compute.

    Nvidia’s Investment Strategy and Regrets

    Jensen was unusually candid about his regret over not investing in foundation model companies earlier. He said he did not deeply internalize how different AI labs were from typical startups. A traditional VC would never put $5 to $10 billion into a single AI lab, but that was exactly what companies like OpenAI and Anthropic needed. By the time Jensen understood this, Nvidia was not in a financial or cultural position to make those kinds of investments.

    Now, Nvidia has invested approximately $30 billion in OpenAI and $10 billion in Anthropic. Jensen said he is delighted to support both and considers their existence essential for the world. But he acknowledged that these investments came at much higher valuations than would have been possible years earlier.

    Jensen explained Nvidia’s broader investment philosophy: support everyone, do not pick winners. He invests in one foundation model company, he invests in all of them. This comes from hard-won humility. When Nvidia started, there were 60 3D graphics companies. Nvidia’s original architecture was “precisely wrong” and the company would have been at the top of most lists to fail. Jensen said he has enough humility from that experience to know that you cannot predict which AI company will ultimately succeed.

    Why Nvidia Will Not Become a Hyperscaler

    Dwarkesh pointed out that Nvidia has the cash to build and operate its own cloud infrastructure, bypassing the middleman ecosystem that converts CapEx into OpEx for AI labs. Jensen rejected this path based on his core operating philosophy.

    If Nvidia did not build its computing platform, NVLink, and the CUDA ecosystem, nobody else would have done it. He is “completely certain” of that. These are things Nvidia must do. But the world has lots of clouds. If Nvidia did not build a cloud, someone else would show up. So the answer is to support the ecosystem instead: invest in CoreWeave, Nscale, Nebius, and others to help them exist and scale, rather than competing with them.

    Jensen was clear that Nvidia is not trying to be in the financing business either. When OpenAI needed a $30 billion investment before its IPO, Nvidia stepped up because OpenAI needed it and Nvidia deeply believed in the company. But these are targeted ecosystem investments, not a strategic pivot into cloud services.

    On GPU allocation during shortages, Jensen pushed back on the narrative that Nvidia strategically “fractures” the market by giving allocations to smaller neoclouds. He said the process is straightforward: you forecast demand, you place a purchase order, and it is first in, first out. Nvidia never changes prices based on demand. Jensen said he prefers to be dependable and serve as the foundation of the industry rather than extracting maximum short-term value.

    The China Debate

    The longest and most heated section of the interview was Jensen’s case against US chip export controls on China. This was a genuine debate, with Dwarkesh pushing the national security argument and Jensen pushing back forcefully.

    Jensen’s core argument rested on several pillars. First, China already has abundant compute. They manufacture 60% or more of the world’s mainstream chips, have massive energy infrastructure (including empty data centers with full power), and employ roughly 50% of the world’s AI researchers. The threshold of compute needed to build models like Anthropic’s Mythos has already been reached and exceeded by China’s existing infrastructure.

    Second, export controls have backfired. They accelerated China’s domestic chip industry, forced their AI ecosystem to optimize for internal architectures instead of the American tech stack, and caused the United States to concede the second-largest technology market in the world. Jensen compared this directly to how US telecom policy allowed Huawei to dominate global telecommunications infrastructure.

    Third, Jensen argued that AI is a five-layer stack (energy, chips, computing platform, models, applications) and the US needs to win at every layer. Fixating on one layer (models) at the expense of another layer (chips) is counterproductive. If Chinese open source AI models end up optimized for non-American hardware and that stack gets exported to the global south, the Middle East, Africa, and Southeast Asia, the US will have lost something far more valuable than whatever marginal compute advantage the export controls provided.

    Dwarkesh countered with the Mythos example: Anthropic’s new model found thousands of high-severity zero-day vulnerabilities across every major operating system and browser, including one that had existed in OpenBSD for 27 years. If China had enough compute to train and deploy a model like Mythos at scale before the US could prepare, the cyber-offensive capabilities would be devastating.

    Jensen’s response was direct. Mythos was trained on “fairly mundane capacity” that is already abundantly available in China. The amount of compute is not the bottleneck for that kind of breakthrough. Great computer science is, and China has no shortage of brilliant AI researchers. He pointed to DeepSeek as evidence: most advances in AI come from algorithmic innovation, not raw hardware. If China’s researchers can achieve breakthroughs like DeepSeek with limited hardware, imagine what they could do with more.

    Jensen also argued for dialogue over confrontation. He said it is essential that American and Chinese AI researchers are talking to each other, and that both countries agree on what AI should not be used for. The idea that you can prevent AI risks by cutting off chip sales, when the real advances come from algorithms and computer science, reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of how AI progress works.

    The debate ended without resolution, but Jensen’s final point was sharp: “I’m not talking to somebody who woke up a loser. That loser attitude, that loser premise, makes no sense to me.”

    Why Not Multiple Chip Architectures?

    Near the end of the interview, Dwarkesh asked why Nvidia does not run multiple parallel chip projects with different architectures, like a Cerebras-style wafer-scale design or a Dojo-style huge package, or even one without CUDA.

    Jensen’s answer was simple: “We don’t have a better idea.” Nvidia simulates all of these alternative approaches in its internal simulators and they are provably worse. The company works on exactly the projects it wants to work on. If the workload were to change dramatically (not just the algorithms, but the actual market shape), Nvidia might add other accelerators.

    In fact, Nvidia recently did exactly this by acquiring Groq. The inference market is now segmenting into different tiers. Some customers will pay premium prices for extremely fast response times even if throughput is lower. This creates a new “high ASP token” segment that justifies a different point on the performance curve. But Jensen was clear: if he had more money, he would put it all behind Nvidia’s existing architecture, not diversify into alternatives.

    Nvidia Without AI

    Jensen closed by saying that even if the deep learning revolution had never happened, Nvidia would be “very, very large.” The premise of the company has always been that general-purpose computing cannot scale indefinitely and that domain-specific acceleration is the way forward. Molecular dynamics, seismic processing, image processing, computational lithography, quantum chemistry, and data processing all benefit from GPU acceleration regardless of AI. Jensen said the fundamental promise of accelerated computing has not changed “not even a little bit.”

    Thoughts

    This interview is one of the most revealing Jensen Huang conversations in years, partly because Dwarkesh actually pushes back instead of lobbing softballs. A few things stand out.

    The Anthropic regret is real and significant. Jensen is essentially admitting that Nvidia’s biggest strategic miss of the AI era was not understanding that foundation model companies needed supplier-level capital commitments, not VC funding. The fact that Google and AWS used compute investments to lock in Anthropic’s architecture choices has had downstream consequences that Nvidia is still working to unwind. When Jensen says Anthropic is “a unique instance, not a trend” for TPU adoption, he is simultaneously downplaying the threat and revealing exactly how seriously he takes it.

    The China debate is the highlight. Jensen’s argument is more nuanced than it first appears. He is not saying “sell China everything.” He is saying the current binary approach of near-total restriction has backfired by accelerating China’s domestic chip industry and pushing the Chinese AI ecosystem away from the American tech stack. His comparison to the US telecom industry losing global market share to Huawei is pointed and historically grounded. Whether you agree with his conclusion or not, the framing of AI as a five-layer stack where the US needs to compete at every layer is a useful mental model.

    The “electrons to tokens” framing is Jensen at his best. It is a simple metaphor that captures something genuinely complex about where value is created in the AI supply chain. And his insistence that the transformation is “far from deeply understood” is a subtle way of arguing that Nvidia’s competitive position will be durable because the problem space is not close to being solved.

    The Groq acquisition reveal is interesting for what it signals about the inference market. If Nvidia is creating a separate product tier for premium-priced, low-latency tokens, it suggests the company sees inference economics fragmenting significantly. This aligns with the broader trend of AI becoming an enterprise product where different customers have wildly different willingness to pay based on how they use tokens.

    Finally, Jensen’s refusal to diversify chip architectures is a bold bet. “We simulate it all in our simulator, provably worse” is an incredibly confident statement. History is full of companies that were right until they were not. But Nvidia’s track record of 50x generation-over-generation improvements through co-design across processors, fabric, libraries, and algorithms is hard to argue with. The question is whether the current paradigm of transformer-based models on GPU clusters represents a local or global optimum for AI compute.