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  • OpenCode CEO Jay V on 20x Growth in 6 Months: 13 Million Users, 7 Trillion Tokens a Day, the Anthropic Block That Backfired, and the 16-Year Road to Overnight Success

    In this episode of Y Combinator’s Lightcone podcast, Jay V, founder and CEO of OpenCode, the open-source coding agent that works with any model, walks through one of the wildest growth stories in developer tools: 650,000 monthly active users in January to roughly 13 million by June, 7 trillion tokens processed per day, and a business that went from zero to a $40 million revenue run rate in about eight months. He also tells the part almost nobody knows: the company behind this “overnight success” is a 16-year-old legal entity that applied to Y Combinator nine times before getting in.

    TLDW

    Jay V explains how OpenCode grew 20x in six months to around 13 million monthly active users and 4.6 million weekly actives, processing 7 trillion tokens a day (more than OpenRouter’s entire volume), with an inference business annualizing near $40 million plus 160,000 subscribers worth another $18 million. The inflection point came when Anthropic started blocking Claude Code subscriptions inside OpenCode by rejecting requests whose system prompt contained the words “open code,” which backfired by equating the two products and sending curious users flooding in, shortly after which OpenAI’s Codex officially supported OpenCode. The conversation covers OpenCode’s public usage data (DeepSeek Flash dominating token volume despite GLM hype), a global user base led by China at 17% with heavy usage in Indonesia, Brazil, and Vietnam, Fortune 500 companies discovering thousands of employees already using the tool, the shift from ad-based CAC to token-based CAC, the flat 24-hour GPU utilization curve that comes from serving the whole planet, the “betting the field” marketplace thesis on model commoditization, and the founder’s 16-year, nine-application journey from a Waterloo dorm through SST, OpenNext, and selling coffee over SSH to finally catching lightning.

    Thoughts

    The Anthropic block is the most instructive growth story in the episode, because it is a perfect modern Streisand effect. Anthropic had a defensible reason to stop subsidized Claude Code subscriptions from flowing through a third-party harness, but the implementation (rejecting any request whose system prompt literally contained “open code”) turned a quiet policy decision into a public endorsement. As Jay puts it, the block placed OpenCode on the same pedestal as Claude Code in the minds of developers who had never heard of it. The hosts’ Instacart comparison is apt: when Amazon bought Whole Foods, the “death of Instacart” meme drove every grocer in America into Instacart’s arms. Incumbents keep learning this lesson the hard way. You cannot block a product without simultaneously advertising that it matters.

    The deeper story is geographic. Silicon Valley talks about coding agents as if the $200-per-month power user is the market, and Jay’s data says the opposite. China alone is 17% of OpenCode’s usage, with Indonesia, Brazil, and Vietnam each carrying meaningful share, places where a frontier subscription costs more than rent. OpenCode’s $10 Go plan, running DeepSeek and GLM instead of Sonnet and Opus, is how billions of developers will actually have their first coding-agent moment. There is also a hard operational edge hiding in that distribution: because the East works while the West sleeps, OpenCode’s GPU utilization runs a nearly flat 24-hour cycle, which quietly improves unit economics in a way no single-market competitor can match. Serving the whole planet is not just a mission statement. It is a margin strategy.

    OpenCode’s neutrality is turning into one of the most valuable datasets in AI. Because the product is a harness over every model rather than a storefront for one lab, opencode.ai/data shows what developers actually run when they are spending their own money, and it routinely contradicts the Twitter narrative. GLM was supposedly eating DeepSeek’s lunch; the token-volume charts show DeepSeek Flash dipping and then bouncing right back. Users are not loyal, they are rational: they ride frontier limits until they hit caps, then switch to models cheap and fast enough to finish the day’s work. That behavioral reality, boring cost optimization rather than fandom, is what the model market actually looks like once the marketing fog clears, and only a neutral aggregator gets to see it.

    The business model inversion deserves more attention than it usually gets. In the last era, customer acquisition cost meant ads. In this one, it means tokens: the free tier is the marketing budget, spent on giving people the aha moment, and the payoff comes when a fraction of those users become whales paying per token, where OpenCode’s volume discounts become margin. This is the same funnel Anthropic and OpenAI run, except the frontier labs subsidize with investor billions while OpenCode rides the falling cost curve of open-weight models. The enterprise motion follows the same bottoms-up physics: no procurement dance, just inbound emails saying thousands of our employees are already using you, please sign the security questionnaire. That is the purest product-market-fit signal that exists.

    And then there is the 16-year overnight success. Same legal entity since 2010, same two founders from a Waterloo dorm room, nine YC applications and four interviews before acceptance in 2021, years of living with parents and running out of money, a serverless framework, a coffee shop that ran over SSH. Every “dead end” turns out to have been training: the consumer company taught metrics discipline, SST taught open source and building in public, the terminal storefront taught terminal-UI craft that made OpenCode instantly credible with the Neovim crowd. The hosts land the right conclusion: lightning did strike, but the founders spent a decade positioning the bottle. In an industry currently obsessed with six-month-old unicorns, this episode is a useful reminder that most of them are carrying more history than the headline suggests.

    Key Takeaways

    • OpenCode ended June 2026 at roughly 13 million monthly active users and 4.6 million weekly actives, close to Codex’s numbers, a 20x increase from about 650,000 monthly actives at the start of the year.
    • The platform now processes around 7 trillion tokens per day, more than OpenRouter’s total of roughly 6 trillion, up from about 300 billion per day at the beginning of the year.
    • The pay-per-token inference business, launched around late September 2025, annualizes to $31-33 million on June data and $38-40 million on the most recent week, roughly eight months from zero.
    • The subscription product launched in late February has grown to about 160,000 monthly subscribers, roughly $18 million in annualized revenue on top of inference.
    • A Codex lead engineer publicly noted that about 5% of all Codex subscribers use OpenCode as their main harness, and OpenAI officially supports Codex subscriptions inside OpenCode.
    • In the first week of January, Anthropic began blocking Claude Code subscriptions in OpenCode by rejecting any request whose system prompt contained the words “open code.”
    • Jay concedes the block made business sense (Anthropic subsidizes that usage) but says it inadvertently equated OpenCode with Claude Code and drove waves of new users to investigate the product.
    • The hosts compare it to Amazon buying Whole Foods: the “death of Instacart” meme drove every grocer in America to sign with Instacart, fueling its growth instead of killing it.
    • The founding premise is that most people in the world still have not experienced the magic of a coding agent, and frontier per-token prices put that moment out of reach for much of the globe.
    • When OpenCode launched in June 2025 the pitch was using your Claude Code subscription in a better terminal UI; by August and September the first credible open-source models (GLM, Kimi, MiniMax) arrived, roughly six months behind the frontier.
    • February 2026 marked the first four-week span in OpenCode’s data where users ran Gemini more than the Anthropic models (Sonnet plus Opus combined), which convinced the team the non-Anthropic models were ready for real work and triggered the subscription launch.
    • OpenCode publishes its usage data at opencode.ai/data, covering the Go plan where $10 a month buys access to open-source models.
    • DeepSeek Flash leads token volume per day, with the two DeepSeek models plus GLM as the top three, despite social media chatter suggesting GLM had overtaken DeepSeek.
    • By unique users the top models run DeepSeek Flash at about 38,000, DeepSeek Pro at 31,000, and GLM 5.2 near 30,000.
    • A key usage pattern: as users approach daily or weekly limits on premium models, they switch to very cheap models like DeepSeek Flash to finish their work, extending how much coding-agent time their budget buys.
    • Speed matters too: some open models are hosted with far higher tokens-per-second than alternatives, making the agent feel near real time, and users perceive quality niches, like GLM 5.2 being better at front-end design.
    • China is OpenCode’s largest market at 17% of usage, which the hosts note may make it the only YC company in history with meaningful usage in China, partly because Chinese developers want to run Chinese models and OpenCode gives them that choice.
    • Developing countries are huge: Indonesia at 4% of traffic, Brazil at 5%, plus Vietnam and similar markets where a $200-a-month Claude Code subscription is prohibitively expensive.
    • The US, which the team was not even targeting with the Go plan, is growing strongly anyway, which Jay reads as a broader vibe shift toward token budgeting even among Americans.
    • Large US companies with effectively unlimited token budgets also adopted OpenCode early because they did not want to be locked into a specific model or harness.
    • Dozens of forward-leaning Fortune 500 companies have significant OpenCode footprints, often discovered when the company itself emails saying thousands of employees are already using it.
    • Enterprise inbound has inverted the old SaaS procurement dance: companies beg OpenCode to fill out security questionnaires so they can officially use a product their engineers already adopted.
    • Enterprise pull comes in four flavors: officially blessing developer usage, extending the tool to non-technical employees, embedding the agent loop inside their own products, and managing token spend by routing teams to cheaper models.
    • One enterprise asked for deep visibility into exactly what every employee does with the tool, which the team flagged as a should-we-even-build-this question.
    • Ramp built a Slack bot running OpenCode’s embeddable server (the agent loop that works behind the UI) before OpenCode had built anything similar internally, publishing a blog post about it in December.
    • OpenCode is architected as a two-part product: the terminal UI you interact with, and a separately embeddable server that runs the agent loop and calls the LLM.
    • The new CAC is tokens, not ads: the free tier exists to give people the magic moment, the subscription converts them to real work, and whales paying per token feed directly into margin via OpenCode’s volume discounts on inference.
    • The episode references Dylan Patel’s podcast claim that Anthropic reached roughly $50 billion annualized revenue at around 70% margin in Q2, proof that the subsidize-then-harvest funnel can cross into profitability.
    • Global usage produces a nearly flat 24-hour GPU utilization curve (the East works while the West sleeps), improving unit economics versus competitors serving one region.
    • Jay describes OpenCode as a marketplace that showcases model diversity: competition among labs benefits consumers, while vendor lock-in mostly benefits vendor margins.
    • OpenCode is now the largest customer by token volume for most open-source model labs, making the relationship symbiotic: the strategy is not picking a winning lab but betting the whole field.
    • Every bump in OpenCode’s monthly actives traces back to a corresponding release in the open-source model market, making its growth a proxy for open-model progress.
    • The name OpenCode was deliberate positioning: when a market has one or two dominant players, the rest coalesces around an open alternative, and whoever occupies that position first is very hard to displace.
    • To support 70+ models and providers at launch, the team built models.dev, an open-source database of models and providers that Jay calls probably the best such dataset in the world.
    • The origin moment: when Claude Code appeared in February 2025, the team (Neovim users unimpressed by its terminal UI) decided to build a coding agent that met the standard of modern terminal tools, credibility that resonated instantly with the core developer audience.
    • The team had form here: co-founder Dax had built terminal.shop, a complete storefront for buying coffee over SSH, the kind of eccentric-taste project the hosts argue pulls founders toward outlier outcomes.
    • The company is one 16-year-old legal entity, incorporated in 2010, founded by Jay and his college roommate Frank after a Waterloo co-op term convinced Jay he never wanted a normal job.
    • Jay applied to YC nine times between 2016 and 2021 with four interviews before getting in, with his first interview dating back to the era when Paul Graham ran them and an Airbnb founder was hanging around the waiting room.
    • The 2021 YC idea was a serverless platform, Heroku for AWS, which became SST, the team’s first big open-source project and the on-ramp to building in public.
    • Building in public became core identity after co-founder Dax observed that if all your code is public and you work in public, staying silent about it is a disservice to the product; the community now follows the company like a reality TV show.
    • Jay credits survival to stubbornness, visible forward progress, and cheap burn (living with parents after running out of money), while warning founders: don’t try this at home.
    • The hosts’ framing of the whole arc: it took ten years of grinding to get to zero-to-$30-million in eight months, and catching lightning in a bottle requires positioning the bottle correctly first.

    Detailed Summary

    The Numbers: 20x in Six Months

    OpenCode began the year around 650,000 monthly active users and ended June near 13 million, with 4.6 million weekly actives that put it in the same conversation as OpenAI’s Codex. Token throughput grew from roughly 300 billion per day to 7 trillion, a volume larger than all of OpenRouter. The money followed two tracks: a pay-per-token inference business launched in the fall that annualizes near $40 million on recent weeks, and a subscription product launched in late February that reached 160,000 monthly subscribers and about $18 million annualized. Codex officially supporting OpenCode, with around 5% of Codex subscribers choosing it as their harness, added a second frontier on-ramp right as the Anthropic controversy peaked.

    The Anthropic Block That Backfired

    Using a Claude Code subscription inside OpenCode was one of the most common usage patterns until Anthropic moved to stop it in early January, rejecting requests whose system prompt mentioned “open code.” Jay is gracious about the logic (Anthropic subsidizes subscription usage and wants it inside its own product) but the effect was the opposite of containment. The block put the scrappy open-source harness on the same pedestal as the category leader, told every developer who had not tried it that it was worth investigating, and kicked off the year’s 20x run. The hosts draw the Instacart parallel: a supposed death blow that functioned as the best marketing campaign the company never paid for.

    A Global User Base the Valley Doesn’t See

    The product premise is that the coding-agent aha moment is a once-a-generation experience most of the world cannot afford at frontier prices. The Go plan ($10 a month for open-source models) was built for that global audience, and the geography shows it: China leads at 17%, with Indonesia at 4%, Brazil at 5%, and Vietnam prominent, markets where $200 a month is simply not a consumer price point. Two surprises followed. Chinese developers use OpenCode partly to run their own country’s models, which no US-locked product lets them do. And the US, never the target for Go, is growing fast anyway, which Jay reads as the token-budgeting vibe shift reaching even the throw-money-at-it crowd, helped by moments like GLM 5.2’s popularity making the plan the easiest way to try it.

    What the Usage Data Really Shows

    OpenCode publishes per-model usage at opencode.ai/data, and because every data point is an actual end user rather than aggregated API traffic, it is arguably the cleanest picture of what working engineers really run. DeepSeek Flash dominates token volume, the two DeepSeeks plus GLM hold the top three, and the market-share graph shows DeepSeek dipping when GLM launched and then bouncing back, contradicting the Twitter narrative of a GLM takeover. By unique users, Flash leads at 38,000 with DeepSeek Pro at 31,000 and GLM 5.2 near 30,000. The behavioral driver is pragmatic: cheap, fast models let users keep working after they hit premium limits, hosted speeds make some models feel real time, and perceived niches (GLM for front-end design) steer specific workloads.

    Enterprises Arriving Through the Back Door

    Before the open-model wave, companies adopted OpenCode to avoid lock-in to any single model or harness. Now dozens of forward-thinking Fortune 500 companies have significant footprints, and the procurement process has inverted: instead of sales outreach, OpenCode receives DMs saying a few thousand employees are already using the product, please sign the security questionnaire, and often, please don’t tell anyone. Once inside, enterprises pull in predictable directions: extend access to non-technical staff, embed the agent loop in their own products, and manage token spend by restricting expensive frontier models to teams that need them. Ramp exemplified the embedding path, running a Slack bot on OpenCode’s server component before OpenCode itself had tried it. One request, total visibility into employee activity, raised the harder question of what the company is willing to build.

    Token Economics: CAC Is Now Paid in Tokens

    The episode’s sharpest business insight is that customer acquisition cost has migrated from ads to tokens. Becoming skilled enough with coding agents to justify heavy spend is itself expensive, a chasm most individuals and companies cannot cross unaided. Anthropic and OpenAI solve this by subsidizing subscriptions until a percentage of users become whales, and per Dylan Patel’s numbers cited in the episode, that funnel has carried Anthropic to roughly $50 billion annualized at 70% margins. OpenCode runs the same funnel without frontier-scale subsidies: the free tier delivers the magic moment, the $10 plan makes real work affordable on open models, and whales paying per token convert OpenCode’s volume discounts into margin. The flat 24-hour GPU utilization curve from serving every timezone compounds the advantage.

    Betting the Field: The Marketplace Thesis

    Jay frames OpenCode as a marketplace where users pick models by attribute and cost, which keeps labs honest and passes competitive gains to consumers instead of vendor margins. Every bump in OpenCode’s growth traces to a release in the open-model market, so the company is explicitly not picking a winning lab; it is betting the field. That bet has made OpenCode the largest customer by token volume for most open-source model labs, a symbiosis where each side needs the other. On commoditization, Jay’s view is nuanced: the intelligence market is so large that labs will carve defensible niches along the quality-cost-performance axes, the way DeepSeek deliberately owns the cost corner. The positioning strategy has deep roots: as with the team’s earlier OpenNext project, when a market has two dominant players, the rest coalesces around an open alternative, and OpenCode raced to become that default, building models.dev along the way just to support 70+ providers at launch.

    Sixteen Years to Overnight Success

    The backstory reframes everything. Jay started the company after a discouraging Waterloo co-op term in 2006-2007, incorporated with college roommate Frank in 2010, and spent the next decade shipping products that did “reasonably well” while applying to YC nine times across 2016-2021, with four interviews, all as the same legal entity, the same founders, and a rotating cast of ideas. His first YC interview was with Paul Graham, in a waiting room shared with an Airbnb founder. Acceptance finally came in 2021 with the serverless platform that became SST, the team’s gateway into open source and building in public, a practice pushed by YC’s Dalton and crystallized by co-founder Dax’s observation that public code deserves public storytelling. When Claude Code landed in February 2025, the team’s terminal-UI taste (honed on projects as eccentric as coffee-over-SSH) told them exactly what to build. The hosts close on the honest version of the lightning-in-a-bottle myth: ten years of grinding taught the team consumer metrics, open source, marketing, and positioning, so when the strike came, the bottle was already in place.

    Notable Quotes

    “Most people in the world still haven’t experienced the magic of a coding agent.”

    Jay V, on the founding premise of OpenCode

    “You really know you have product market fit when like enterprises are bugging you to sign the security agreement so they can use your product.”

    Lightcone host, on OpenCode’s inverted enterprise sales motion

    “It’s not that we’re picking a winner in terms of a model lab. We’re just betting the field. We just think the rest of the field is going to do well.”

    Jay V, on OpenCode’s strategy toward the model market

    “With these open-source models, we’re the largest customer for most of them.”

    Jay V, on OpenCode’s token volume relative to open-model labs

    “When you’ve got a dominant or in this case two dominant players in the market, the rest of the market coalesces around an open alternative. And picking that position ends up being really valuable because if you pick it, it’s very hard for somebody else to displace you.”

    Jay V, on the deliberate positioning behind the OpenCode name

    “This is just an unprecedented market, like the market for intelligence has not existed before, everybody should be thinking in a positive-sum grow-the-pie mentality.”

    Lightcone host, on why labs should welcome OpenCode’s growth

    “Look, you know, all your code is public. You work basically in public. If you don’t talk about it publicly, you’re probably doing yourself a disservice and your product a disservice.”

    Jay V, recounting co-founder Dax’s case for building in public

    “It was really more a journey that took 10 years to get to 0 to 30 million in 8 months.”

    Lightcone host, reframing the overnight-success narrative

    “To catch the lightning in the bottle, you actually like have to sort of position the bottle correctly and be ready for it and know what to do with it.”

    Lightcone host, closing the episode on preparation meeting luck

    Watch the full conversation here.

    Related Reading

    • OpenCode the open-source coding agent discussed throughout the episode, including its public usage data.
    • models.dev the open-source database of AI models and providers the team built to support 70+ providers at launch.
    • SST the serverless framework that got the company into YC and established its open-source, build-in-public roots.
    • Terminal the coffee-over-SSH storefront that proved the team’s terminal-UI chops before OpenCode existed.
    • Y Combinator the accelerator behind the Lightcone podcast, which Jay applied to nine times before getting in.

  • Andrej Karpathy on Vibe Coding vs Agentic Engineering: Why He Feels More Behind Than Ever in 2026

    Andrej Karpathy, co-founder of OpenAI, former head of AI at Tesla, and now founder of Eureka Labs, returned to Sequoia Capital’s AI Ascent 2026 stage for a wide-ranging conversation with partner Stephanie Zhan. One year after coining the term “vibe coding,” Karpathy unpacked what has changed, why he has never felt more behind as a programmer, and why the discipline emerging on top of vibe coding, which he calls agentic engineering, is the more serious craft worth learning right now.

    The conversation covered Software 3.0, the limits of verifiability, why LLMs are better understood as ghosts than animals, and why you can outsource your thinking but never your understanding. Below is a complete breakdown of the talk for anyone building, hiring, or learning in the agent era.

    TLDW

    Karpathy describes a sharp transition that happened in December 2025, when agentic coding tools crossed a threshold and code chunks just started coming out fine without correction. He frames the current moment as Software 3.0, where prompting an LLM is the new programming, and entire app categories are collapsing into a single model call. He distinguishes vibe coding (raising the floor for everyone) from agentic engineering (preserving the professional quality bar at much higher speed). Models remain jagged because they are trained on what labs choose to verify, so founders should look for valuable but neglected verifiable domains. Taste, judgment, oversight, and understanding remain uniquely human responsibilities, and tools that enhance understanding are the ones he is most excited about.

    Key Takeaways

    • December 2025 was a clear inflection point. Code chunks from agentic tools started arriving correct without edits, and Karpathy stopped correcting the system entirely.
    • Software 3.0 means programming has become prompting. The context window is your lever over the LLM interpreter, which performs computation in digital information space.
    • Open Code’s installer is a software 3.0 example. Instead of a complex shell script, you copy paste a block of text to your agent, and the agent figures out your environment.
    • The Menu Gen anecdote illustrates how entire apps can become spurious. What used to require OCR, image generation, and a hosted Vercell app can now be a single Gemini plus Nano Banana prompt.
    • Vibe coding raises the floor. Agentic engineering preserves the professional ceiling. The two are different disciplines.
    • The 10x engineer multiplier is now far higher than 10x for people who are good at agentic engineering.
    • Hiring processes have not caught up. Puzzle interviews are the old paradigm. New evaluations should look like building a full Twitter clone for agents and surviving simulated red team attacks from other agents.
    • Models are jagged because reinforcement learning rewards what is verifiable, and labs choose which verifiable domains to invest in. Strawberry letter counts and the 50 meter car wash question show how state-of-the-art models can refactor 100,000 line codebases yet fail at trivial reasoning.
    • If you are in a verifiable setting, you can run your own fine tuning, build RL environments, and benefit even when the labs are not focused on your domain.
    • LLMs are ghosts, not animals. They are statistical simulations summoned from pre training and shaped by RL appendages, not creatures with curiosity or motivation. Yelling at them does not help.
    • Taste, aesthetics, spec design, and oversight remain human jobs. Models still produce bloated, copy paste heavy code with brittle abstractions.
    • Documentation is still written for humans. Agent native infrastructure, where docs are explicitly designed to be copy pasted into an agent, is a major opportunity.
    • The future likely involves agent representation for people and organizations, with agents talking to other agents to coordinate meetings and tasks.
    • You can outsource your thinking but not your understanding. Tools that help humans understand information faster are uniquely valuable.

    Detailed Summary

    Why Karpathy Feels More Behind Than Ever

    Karpathy opens by describing how he has been using agentic coding tools for over a year. For most of that period, the experience was mixed. The tools could write chunks of code, but they often required edits and supervision. December 2025 changed everything. With more time during a holiday break and the release of newer models, Karpathy noticed that the chunks just came out fine. He kept asking for more. He cannot remember the last time he had to correct the agent. He started trusting the system, and what followed was a cascade of side projects.

    He wants to stress that anyone whose model of AI was formed by ChatGPT in early 2025 needs to look again. The agentic coherent workflow that genuinely works is a fundamentally different experience, and the transition was stark.

    Software 3.0 Explained

    The Software 1.0 paradigm was writing explicit code. Software 2.0 was programming by curating datasets and training neural networks. Software 3.0 is programming by prompting. When you train a GPT class model on a sufficiently large set of tasks, the model implicitly learns to multitask everything in the data. The result is a programmable computer where the context window is your interface, and the LLM is the interpreter performing computation in digital information space.

    Karpathy gives two concrete examples. The first is Open Code’s installer. Normally a shell script handles installation across many platforms, and these scripts balloon in complexity. Open Code instead provides a block of text you copy paste to your agent. The agent reads your environment, follows instructions, debugs in a loop, and gets things working. You no longer specify every detail. The agent supplies its own intelligence.

    The Menu Gen Story

    The second example is Karpathy’s Menu Gen project. He built an app that takes a photo of a restaurant menu, OCRs the items, generates pictures for each dish, and renders the enhanced menu. The app runs on Vercell and chains together multiple services. Then he saw a software 3.0 alternative. You take a photo, give it to Gemini, and ask it to use Nano Banana to overlay generated images onto the menu. The model returns a single image with everything rendered. The entire app he built is now spurious. The neural network does the work. The prompt is the photo. The output is the photo. There is no app between them.

    Karpathy uses this to argue that founders should not just think of AI as a speedup of existing patterns. Entirely new things become possible. His example is LLM driven knowledge bases that compile a wiki for an organization from raw documents. That is not a faster version of older code. It is a new capability with no prior equivalent.

    What Will Look Obvious in Hindsight

    Stephanie Zhan asks what the equivalent of building websites in the 1990s or mobile apps in the 2010s looks like today. Karpathy speculates about completely neural computers. Imagine a device that takes raw video and audio as input, runs a neural net as the host process, and uses diffusion to render a unique UI for each moment. He notes that early computing in the 1950s and 60s was undecided between calculator like and neural net like architectures. We went down the calculator path. He thinks the relationship may eventually flip, with neural networks becoming the host and CPUs becoming co processors used for deterministic appendages.

    Verifiability and Jagged Intelligence

    Karpathy spent significant writing time on verifiability. Classical computers automate what you can specify in code. The current generation of LLMs automates what you can verify. Frontier labs train models inside giant reinforcement learning environments, so the models peak in capability where verification rewards are strong, especially math and code. They stagnate or get rough around the edges elsewhere.

    This explains the jagged intelligence puzzle. The classic example was counting letters in strawberry. The newer one Karpathy offers: a state of the art model will refactor a 100,000 line codebase or find zero day vulnerabilities, then tell you to walk to a car wash 50 meters away because it is so close. The two coexisting capabilities should be jarring. They reveal that you must stay in the loop, treat models as tools, and understand which RL circuits your task lands in.

    He also points out that data distribution choices matter. The jump in chess capability from GPT 3.5 to GPT 4 came largely because someone at OpenAI added a huge amount of chess data to pre training. Whatever ends up in the mix gets disproportionately good. You are at the mercy of what labs prioritize, and you have to explore the model the labs hand you because there is no manual.

    Founder Advice in a Lab Dominated World

    Asked what founders should do given that labs are racing toward escape velocity in obvious verifiable domains, Karpathy points back to verifiability itself. If your domain is verifiable but currently neglected, you can build RL environments and run your own fine tuning. The technology works. Pull the lever with diverse RL environments and a fine tuning framework, and you get something useful. He hints there is one specific domain he finds undervalued but declines to name it on stage.

    On the question of what is automatable only from a distance, Karpathy says almost everything can ultimately be made verifiable. Even writing can be assessed by councils of LLM judges. The differences are in difficulty, not in possibility.

    From Vibe Coding to Agentic Engineering

    Vibe coding raises the floor. Anyone can build something. Agentic engineering preserves the professional quality bar that existed before. You are still responsible for your software. You are still not allowed to ship vulnerabilities. The question is how you go faster without sacrificing standards. Karpathy calls it an engineering discipline because coordinating spiky, stochastic agents to maintain quality at speed requires real skill.

    The ceiling on agentic engineering capability is very high. The old idea of a 10x engineer is now an understatement. People who are good at this peak far above 10x.

    What Mediocre Versus AI Native Looks Like

    Karpathy compares this to how different generations use ChatGPT. The difference between a mediocre and an AI native engineer using Claude Code, Codex, or Open Code is investment in setup and full use of available features. The same way previous generations of engineers got the most out of Vim or VSCode, today’s strong engineers tune their agentic environments deeply.

    He thinks hiring processes have not caught up. Most companies still hand out puzzles. The new test should look like asking a candidate to build a full Twitter clone for agents, make it secure, simulate user activity with agents, and then run multiple Codex 5.4x high instances trying to break it. The candidate’s system should hold up.

    What Humans Still Own

    Agents are intern level entities right now. Humans are responsible for aesthetics, judgment, taste, and oversight. Karpathy describes a Menu Gen bug where the agent tried to associate Stripe purchases with Google accounts using email addresses as the key, instead of a persistent user ID. Email addresses can differ between Stripe and Google accounts. This kind of specification level mistake is exactly what humans must catch.

    He works with agents to design detailed specs and treats those as documentation. The agent fills in the implementation. He has stopped memorizing API details for things like NumPy axis arguments or PyTorch reshape versus permute. The intern handles recall. Humans handle architecture, design, and the right questions.

    Reading the actual code agents produce can still cause heart attacks. It is bloated, full of copy paste, riddled with awkward and brittle abstractions. His Micro GPT project, an attempt to simplify LLM training to its bare essence, was nearly impossible to drive through agents. The models hate simplification. That capability sits outside their RL circuits. Nothing is fundamentally preventing this from improving. The labs simply have not invested.

    Animals Versus Ghosts

    Karpathy returns to his framing that we are not building animals, we are summoning ghosts. Animal intelligence comes from evolution and is shaped by intrinsic motivation, fun, curiosity, and empowerment. LLMs are statistical simulation circuits where pre training is the substrate and RL is bolted on as appendages. They are jagged. They do not respond to being yelled at. They have no real curiosity. The ghost framing is partly philosophical, but it changes how you approach them. You stay suspicious. You explore. You do not assume the system you used yesterday will behave the same on a new task.

    Agent Native Infrastructure

    Most software, frameworks, libraries, and documentation are still written for humans. Karpathy’s pet peeve is being told to do something instead of being given a block of text to copy paste to his agent. He wants agent first infrastructure. The Menu Gen project’s hardest part was not writing code. It was deploying on Vercell, configuring DNS, navigating service settings, and stringing together integrations. He wants to give a single prompt and have the entire thing deployed without touching anything.

    Long term he expects agent representation for individuals and organizations. His agent will negotiate meeting details with your agent. The world becomes one of sensors, actuators, and agent native data structures legible to LLMs.

    Education and What Still Matters

    The most striking line of the conversation comes near the end. Karpathy quotes a tweet that shaped his thinking: you can outsource your thinking but you cannot outsource your understanding. Information still has to make it into your brain. You still need to know what you are building and why. You cannot direct agents well if you do not understand the system.

    This is part of why he is so excited about LLM driven knowledge bases. Every time he reads an article, his personal wiki absorbs it, and he can query it from new angles. Every projection onto the same information yields new insight. Tools that enhance human understanding are uniquely valuable because LLMs do not excel at understanding. That bottleneck is yours to manage.

    Thoughts

    The most useful frame in this talk is the distinction between vibe coding and agentic engineering. It clarifies what has been muddled for the past year. Vibe coding is about access. Anyone can produce something. Agentic engineering is about discipline. You preserve the standards that made software trustworthy in the first place, while moving at speeds that would have seemed absurd two years ago. These are not the same activity, and conflating them is part of why so many shipped products feel half built.

    The Menu Gen anecdote is the kind of story that should make every solo developer pause. If a single Gemini plus Nano Banana prompt can replace a multi service Vercell deployed app, the question for any builder becomes how much of what you are working on right now is going to be made spurious by the next model release. The honest answer is probably more than you want to admit. The defensive posture is not building thicker apps. It is choosing problems where the model alone is not enough, where taste, distribution, infrastructure, or specific verifiable RL environments give you something the next model cannot collapse into a prompt.

    The verifiability lens is also unusually practical. If you are a solo builder, the question shifts from what is possible to what is verifiable but neglected. The labs will eat the obvious verifiable domains because that is how their RL pipelines are set up. The opportunity is in domains where verification is possible but the labs have not yet invested. That is a much more concrete strategic filter than vague intuitions about defensibility.

    The car wash example is going to stick. State of the art models can refactor enormous codebases and still tell you to walk somewhere a sane person would drive. That is the lived reality of jagged intelligence, and it argues strongly for staying in the loop on real decisions rather than handing off everything to agents. The agents are excellent fillers of blanks. They are not yet trustworthy specifiers of the spec.

    Finally, the line about outsourcing thinking but not understanding is worth taping above the desk. The bottleneck is no longer typing speed, syntax recall, or even API knowledge. It is whether the human in the loop actually understands the system being built. Tools that genuinely improve human understanding, including personal knowledge bases that re project information through different prompts, are likely the most undervalued category of products being built right now. The opportunity is not just in agents. It is in the cognitive scaffolding that makes humans good directors of agents.