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  • Bill Ackman on Investment Strategy, What the Market Is Missing, and How AI Breaks Businesses

    Bill Ackman, founder and CEO of Pershing Square, joined the All-In Podcast for a conversation about how his investment approach has shifted toward permanent, long-term ownership, why he believes the highest-quality companies are being left behind by a market chasing the new new thing, and how AI is raising the risk of disruption for almost every business. He also lays out his plan to turn Howard Hughes into a Berkshire Hathaway-style compounding machine built on insurance. You can watch the full conversation here. Below is a structured breakdown of the ideas, the stories, and the frameworks he uses to underwrite a business.

    TLDW

    Ackman explains how his philosophy evolved from a smaller, more liquid activist toward concentrated, permanent ownership of durable, non-disruptible businesses, with much of his activism now playing out on X rather than in the boardroom. He tells the origin story of his first big trade, Wendy’s and the Tim Hortons spin-off, and explains why a large long-term shareholder on a board is an antidote to short-term markets. On AI, he argues that this is the greatest era in history to build a company, which means the risk of being disrupted has gone up enormously, and that the market is mispricing high-quality compounders like Microsoft, Meta, and Amazon while crowding into chips, semiconductors, and energy. He works through the SaaS question and why niche software is more at risk than platforms, how he underwrites SpaceX, xAI, OpenAI, Anthropic, and Palantir like late-stage venture bets using a people, opportunity, context, deal framework, and why founder-led companies have an edge in making radical calls. The back half covers his Howard Hughes plan to copy Buffett’s insurance-float model, the role of cost of capital and reflexivity in markets, the meme-stock era, going direct on social media, and the three different ways an investor can put money to work with Pershing Square.

    Thoughts

    The most useful idea in the interview is the way Ackman reframes disruption as the central investing problem of the AI era. His point is that the same forces making this the best time in history to start a company, meaning near-unlimited compute, capital, and talent, also raise the odds that any given incumbent gets disrupted. That reframes the word quality. It is no longer mostly about margins and moats. It becomes about non-disruptibility, which is a much higher bar than most quality investors were using a decade ago, and it is why he says most of his research time now goes into assessing that single risk.

    The what-the-market-is-missing thesis is classic contrarian Ackman. Arguing that Microsoft, Meta, and Amazon are the new old-fashioned, undervalued names while capital piles into semiconductors and energy is a direct echo of 2000, when Berkshire Hathaway bottomed precisely because money was chasing internet stocks. It is worth keeping in mind that he owns all three, so the call is also his book. The durable signal here is the framework, not the specific tickers: capital reliably chases the new new thing, and genuinely high-quality businesses get left behind during those rotations.

    The Howard Hughes plan is the most concrete bet in the conversation. Copying Buffett’s insurance-float playbook, short-term treasuries for policyholder money and equities for the surplus, onto a discounted real-estate holding company is elegant. The hard part is exactly what Ackman flags about insurance as an industry: the best investors go to hedge funds, not insurers, so most insurance companies only ever manage the liability side well. Pershing Square’s edge is that Ackman can both write the business and invest the float, which is the same reason it worked for Buffett. The framing of going from a four billion dollar company to a trillion over fifty years is a statement of intent, not a forecast, and should be read that way.

    Underneath all of it sits cost of capital and reflexivity. His observation that a higher stock price literally makes a company more valuable, because it lowers the cost of capital and creates acquisition currency, is the mechanism behind both Elon Musk’s empire and the meme-stock era he is wary of. Going direct on X is the same lever pointed at himself: communicate the vision, lower your own cost of capital, and make the bet easier for other people to place. It is a coherent worldview in which narrative and balance sheet continuously feed each other, and it explains a lot of his behavior over the last few years.

    Key Takeaways

    • The biggest change in Ackman’s approach over time is an appreciation for business quality, meaning long-term, durable, protected, non-disruptible growth as the most important factor.
    • He says he is as activist as ever, but more of it now happens on X than in the traditional corporate context.
    • His first big investment was Wendy’s, which owned Tim Hortons. The simple thesis was to buy Wendy’s, spin off Tim Hortons, and double the money.
    • Early on no one returned his calls, so he had Steve Schwarzman’s Blackstone write a fairness opinion, filed it publicly, and the company spun off Tim Hortons six weeks later. The CEO later thanked him after being fired with a large exit package.
    • Reputation compounds. Where Pershing Square once had to bang down the door, companies now sometimes tweet a welcome when it buys a stake.
    • A large long-term shareholder on a board is a counterweight to short-term markets, letting management test ideas privately and pursue initiatives that hurt the next few quarters of earnings.
    • Pershing Square owns Microsoft, Meta, and Amazon. Ackman argues you are either invested in AI directly or indirectly, or it is a threat, so you have to understand it.
    • The hardest and most important job for a concentrated investor is judging the risk of disruption, and that risk has risen dramatically.
    • This is the greatest era in history to build a business because of near-unlimited access to compute, capital, and talent, which is exactly why the probability of being disrupted has gone up enormously.
    • Markets bring their eye to the new new thing, currently chips, semiconductors, and energy, while high-quality companies get left behind.
    • He draws an analogy to 2000, when Berkshire Hathaway traded at one of its lowest valuations because everyone chased internet stocks. He sees a similar dynamic around Amazon, Meta, and Microsoft today.
    • On the SaaS question, he worries more about a Salesforce than a platform like Microsoft, because niche software charging high per-seat or per-year prices is most exposed, while low-priced platforms are safer.
    • Any software company today has to be as AI-enabled as possible, or risk losing the monopolistic pricing it once enjoyed.
    • His famous March 2020 CNBC appearance was an attempt to reach President Trump and argue for a short shutdown, paired with the view that stocks were incredibly cheap and worth buying.
    • He describes valuation as a tether on the market: when prices stretch too high they snap back, and when they get too cheap the same rubber band pulls valuations up. Calling that out publicly can trigger a psychological reset.
    • His recent bullish call came because stocks of really high-quality companies had gotten crazy cheap on fundamentals, meaning the present value of the cash they generate.
    • He underwrites high-multiple names like SpaceX as venture investments using a framework from business school: people, opportunity, context, deal.
    • On SpaceX, people and opportunity are one of one, the context is incredible, and Starlink plus near-monopoly low-cost launch make it strategically valuable. The complicated part is the deal, meaning the valuation. He invested via an SPV after Ron Baron’s nudge, and also invested in xAI.
    • He treats OpenAI, Anthropic, and Palantir as late-stage venture bets that have proven they can generate real revenue, and says OpenAI should do a better job communicating how it thinks about its enormous capital commitments.
    • Every CEO in America is asking how to use AI, how it applies to their business, and how it is a threat. It is top of mind and boards open every meeting with it.
    • He has not seen much enterprise AI success yet, citing a McKinsey study that 95 percent of enterprise initiatives fail and the rise of the forward deployed engineer as the hot role bridging promise and ROI. Pershing Square itself uses AI mainly for legal, compliance, and back-office work.
    • Founder-led companies have an advantage because founders have the authority and the economic stake to make radical calls, while the average S&P 500 CEO has a roughly three to four year tenure and is incentivized not to make mistakes.
    • He cites Mark Zuckerberg buying Instagram and WhatsApp as the kind of shocking-at-the-time calls that a founder with a track record can make.
    • Ben Graham’s enduring lesson is that a stock is an interest in a business, not a piece of paper, but Graham mostly invested in liquidations and cash-rich shells, and made most of his money on Geico.
    • Most of Buffett’s value at Berkshire came from owning insurance operations and focusing on the asset side of the balance sheet, not just the liability side.
    • Insurance is hard to copy because top investors do not go to work for insurers. Buffett owned half his company and was a great investor, which is why it worked.
    • Howard Hughes came out of the General Growth bankruptcy and owns master-planned cities like Summerlin, with 26,000 acres in the Las Vegas area, comparable to the Irvine Company that built roughly a hundred billion dollars of wealth for Donald Bren.
    • The plan is to reinvest the cash Howard Hughes generates into insurance, put policyholder float in short-term treasuries and the surplus in common stocks, and build a compounding machine over fifty years, buying it at roughly sixty cents on the dollar.
    • A company must earn a return above its cost of capital for the stock to rise. Elon Musk has kept his companies’ cost of capital extremely low, and a SpaceX IPO near a 1.75 trillion dollar valuation could be one of the lowest cost of equity capital transactions ever.
    • Markets have changed less because of Ackman and more because of figures like Ryan Cohen and GameStop, where a stock can trade well above its value on personality and an army of followers.
    • Higher valuations are reflexive: a rising stock price lowers cost of capital and creates currency to issue stock and acquire businesses, which is part of how Elon built Tesla.
    • There are three ways to invest with Pershing Square: the management company itself (a royalty on compounding assets with no capex), PSUS (a portfolio of best ideas trading at an 18 percent discount), and Howard Hughes (a bet on building the next Berkshire). A dollar invested 22 years ago became roughly 27 to 28 times net of fees.
    • Going direct on X, with 2.2 million followers, lets him communicate his vision and lower the friction for others to back his bets, even as his very long tweets have become a running meme.

    Detailed Summary

    From activist trades to permanent capital

    Ackman frames the evolution of his career as a steady move toward business quality. As a smaller, more liquid investor early on, he did not have to think as long-term. As Pershing Square became a bigger, more concentrated investor, durable growth became the dominant factor in every decision. He insists he is still as activist as ever, but a lot of that energy has shifted to X, where he can argue a position publicly rather than only inside a boardroom. The best investments, he notes, are the ones where you do not need to join the board and do anything at all.

    The Wendy’s and Tim Hortons origin story

    One of Pershing Square’s first investments was Wendy’s, which owned the Canadian coffee and donut chain Tim Hortons. The value of Tim Hortons alone was greater than the entire value of Wendy’s, so the idea was simple: buy Wendy’s, spin off Tim Hortons, and double the money. Ackman bought ten percent of the company and could not get the CEO to return a single call, so he had a contact at Blackstone, with Steve Schwarzman’s sign-off, write a fairness opinion on what Wendy’s would be worth after a spin-off, filed it publicly, and watched the spin-off happen six weeks later. The CEO eventually called back to thank him, having been fired but rewarded with a large exit package. Over the years that scrappy approach gave way to a reputation that now opens doors on its own.

    Why a long-term shareholder on the board matters

    The core problem of being a public company, in Ackman’s telling, is the short-term nature of markets and analysts, when a good business should be run in the context of years and even decades. A large, supportive shareholder on the board gives management a place to test ideas before exposing them to the public and a credible voice willing to back initiatives that hurt earnings for a few quarters. That is the value-add he believes a constructive activist can bring to a mature public company, as opposed to a startup where the best outcome is simply to own a great business and stay out of the way.

    AI and the rising risk of disruption

    For a concentrated, long-term investor, the most challenging task is judging the risk that two people from Stanford in a garage build something that destroys your thesis. Ackman argues that risk has climbed dramatically because this is the greatest era in history to build a company, with near-unlimited access to compute, capital, and talent. The paradox is that the conditions that make building easier also make incumbents more fragile, so the bulk of his research now centers on assessing how disruptible a business really is.

    What the market is missing

    Investors bring their attention to the new new thing, currently chips, semiconductors, and energy, which leaves high-quality companies behind. Ackman compares the moment to 2000, when Berkshire Hathaway traded at one of its lowest valuations ever because capital was chasing internet stocks. He sees an echo today in how Amazon, Meta, and Microsoft are treated as old-fashioned, and he considers them undervalued on fundamentals, where value is the present value of the cash a business generates over its life. His recent bullish call, like his March 2020 appearance, came because stocks of really high-quality companies had simply gotten too cheap.

    The SaaS question and AI-enabled software

    On the so-called SaaS apocalypse, Ackman says it is a company-by-company analysis. He worries more about something like Salesforce than about a low-priced platform. The companies most at risk are those that extracted near-monopolistic profits by charging a high annual price for a niche product, because AI lowers the barrier to replicating that functionality. A platform where the average customer pays a small amount per seat, like Microsoft, is far less exposed. The takeaway for any software company is to become as AI-enabled as it possibly can.

    Underwriting SpaceX, xAI, and the AI labs like venture

    For the highest-multiple private companies, Ackman uses a venture lens and a framework a business school professor taught him: people, opportunity, context, deal. SpaceX scores as one of one on people and opportunity, with an incredible context and a near-monopoly in low-cost launch through Starlink, which makes even Amazon a likely customer. The complicated variable is the deal, meaning the valuation, and he admits he has not done all the math, having invested through an SPV after Ron Baron encouraged him, along with a position in xAI. He treats OpenAI, Anthropic, and Palantir as late-stage venture bets that have proven real revenue, and argues OpenAI in particular should communicate more clearly how it justifies capital commitments that vastly exceed current revenue.

    Founder-led companies and the authority to act

    Ackman agrees that founder-led companies have a structural advantage in a fast-changing environment. The average S&P 500 CEO has a tenure of roughly three to four years, a small economic stake, and an incentive not to make a career-ending mistake. A founder is betting an entire life and reputation, has the authority of a major voting and economic position, and has usually made several hard, contrarian calls that turned out right. He points to Mark Zuckerberg’s acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp, which looked shocking at the time, as exactly the kind of decision a founder with a track record can make and a hired manager often cannot.

    Howard Hughes as Berkshire Hathaway 2.0

    Ackman points to a detailed financial history of Berkshire Hathaway showing that the vast majority of Buffett’s value creation came from owning insurance and focusing on the asset side of the balance sheet, not just the liability side. Insurance is hard to replicate because skilled investors join hedge funds rather than insurers, but Buffett owned half his company and was a great investor. Pershing Square is applying the same idea to Howard Hughes, a company created out of the General Growth bankruptcy that owns master-planned cities such as Summerlin, with 26,000 acres around Las Vegas, in the spirit of the Irvine Company that made Donald Bren roughly a hundred billion dollars. The plan is to reinvest the company’s cash into insurance, place policyholder float in short-term treasuries and the surplus in common stocks, avoid issuing stock the way Buffett did, and compound for fifty years, all bought at around sixty cents on the dollar.

    Cost of capital, reflexivity, and going direct

    A company only creates value when it earns above its cost of capital, which is why Howard Hughes, seen as a high-cost-of-capital real-estate business, has long traded at a discount, and why Ackman is repurposing its assets into a higher-returning model. He highlights how reflexive markets are: a higher stock price itself makes a company more valuable by lowering its cost of capital and creating currency to raise money and acquire businesses, a lever Elon Musk used to build Tesla. He attributes real market change less to himself and more to figures like Ryan Cohen and GameStop, where personality and a following can lift a stock far above its value. His own going-direct strategy on X, with 2.2 million followers and famously long posts, is the same mechanism applied to communicating a vision and lowering friction for investors. He closes by laying out three ways to invest with Pershing Square: the management company as a royalty on compounding assets, the PSUS portfolio trading at an 18 percent discount, and Howard Hughes as a bet on building the next Berkshire.

    Notable Quotes

    “The best investments are one where you don’t need to join the board and do anything.”

    Bill Ackman, on the kind of business he most wants to own

    “The probability of your being disrupted has gone up enormously.”

    Bill Ackman, on why assessing disruption risk now dominates his research

    “Valuation is like a tether on the market, right? When it gets too high, it’s like this rubber band that’s stretching and inevitably it bounces back.”

    Bill Ackman, on how prices revert at both extremes

    “People, opportunity, context, deal.”

    Bill Ackman, on the business school framework he uses to underwrite companies like SpaceX

    “Every CEO in America today is like, how do I use AI?”

    Bill Ackman, on AI as the top opportunity and threat in every boardroom

    “A closed mouth gathers no foot.”

    Bill Ackman, quoting the line a friend put next to his name in his high school yearbook

    “The increase in value of the company increases the value of the company, right? Because it lowers the cost of capital, it gives you more flexibility, gives you the ability to issue stock, raise capital, acquire other businesses.”

    Bill Ackman, on the reflexivity between stock price and corporate value

    “The company’s got like a $4 billion market cap and the goal is to build it into a trillion dollar thing over time compounding.”

    Bill Ackman, on his fifty-year plan for Howard Hughes

    Taken together, the conversation is a tour of how Ackman now thinks about quality, disruption, and compounding, and a preview of the Berkshire-style machine he wants to build out of Howard Hughes. Watch the full conversation here.

    Related Reading

  • Benedict Evans on Why AI Is Stuck in 1997: The Task vs the Job, Commodity Models, and Why the Jobs Apocalypse Is Overhyped

    Benedict Evans, the former Andreessen Horowitz partner and independent analyst behind the annual “AI Eating the World” presentation, sat down with Lenny’s Podcast for what the host calls the most rational take on AI you will hear this year. Instead of either doom or hype, Evans argues that AI is as big a deal as the internet or mobile, and only as big a deal as the internet or mobile, which means we are living through something closer to 1997 than to the singularity. The conversation moves through the jobs question, the difference between a task and a job, whether the model labs have any pricing power, the anti-AI backlash, and what people should actually do. You can watch the full conversation on YouTube here.

    TLDW

    Evans frames AI as a platform shift on the scale of the internet or mobile, with the crucial twist that almost nothing has been built yet, so we are in the 1997 moment where confident predictions about winners are usually wrong. He introduces his central tool, the distinction between the task and the job, to explain why “X percent of this profession is exposed to AI” studies are misleading, why the AI labs are paradoxically hiring forward deployed engineers and buying consultancies, and why accountants kept multiplying through every wave of automation (the lump of labour fallacy and Jevons paradox at work). On value capture he makes a deterministic bet that foundation models have no network effects, behave like a commodity, and will look more like cloud than like Windows, with the value moving up the stack to applications, much as it did in telecom, where a trillion-dollar industry grew data traffic thousands of times over while its stocks went nowhere. He covers distribution as the real moat, Apple Intelligence as the most compelling unshipped vision, the fuzzy anti-AI backlash (including the largely fake water panic and the very real harms of deepfakes), raising kids under radical uncertainty, and closes with the disarming admission that his own synthesis-heavy job is exactly the kind AI is currently worst at. His advice: presume radical uncertainty, dive in rather than sneer, and assume it will probably be okay.

    Thoughts

    The most useful thing in this conversation is a single question Evans keeps returning to: what is the task, and what is the job? A spreadsheet automated the arithmetic an accountant does, and the number of accountants went up for the next forty years. Claude Code can write the code, but deciding what to build, for whom, and why is the part nobody has automated. The reason the “this profession is X percent exposed to AI” studies feel hollow is that they assume a job is a neat stack of separable tasks. Evans argues, by analogy to the old expert-systems failure, that you simply cannot decompose a senior lawyer’s work that way. The 75-slide deck is the task. Walking your company, reading its politics, talking to your customers, and telling you the uncomfortable truth is the job, and that is what you actually paid McKinsey for.

    The boldest and most falsifiable claim is that the foundation-model companies look more like cloud than like Windows. No network effects means no winner-take-all, which means durable competition, which means commodity pricing and compressed margins, with the real value accruing up the stack in applications that nobody at the labs is going to build. His telecom analogy is the one to sit with. A trillion-dollar industry grew mobile data traffic by 1,500 to 2,000 times in fifteen years, and the stocks went nowhere for a quarter century, because it was a low-margin utility while all the interesting value moved to Apple and the people building apps on top. If he is right, the current token-burn economics, the person reportedly spending 1.5 million dollars a month on tokens, are the 2010 equivalent of a 50,000 dollar roaming bill, not the steady state. Evans flags openly that he could be completely wrong, which is the intellectually honest part and the part most forecasters skip.

    “It depends” and “it will probably be okay” sound like evasions, and Evans leans into that. But the 1997 framing is doing real work. The point is not that AI is small, it is that the things that will end up mattering have not been built, and that anyone confidently naming the winners today is repeating the 1997 mistake of betting on Excite over a search company with a weird logo. The discipline he is selling is to presume radical uncertainty and act anyway, because the alternative, declaring the whole thing slop and shouting about it online, buys a great feeling of moral superiority and nothing else. His repeated insistence that you can see the job that goes away but never the new job, because it does not exist yet, is the load-bearing idea under his optimism.

    The most disarming moment is the closing AI-corner answer, where the person whose entire brand is explaining AI admits he struggles to use it. His work is synthesis and precise information retrieval, and precise retrieval happens to be exactly what today’s models are worst at. He is, in his own words, the lawyer looking at VisiCalc: it is obviously transformative, and he just does not happen to make spreadsheets all day. That admission is worth more than any benchmark, because it locates the real variable. How much AI changes your life depends less on how good the model gets and more on whether your daily work sits on the part of the jagged frontier where it already works. That is a far more practical lens than arguing about whether AGI arrives in three years or thirty.

    Key Takeaways

    • Evans’s headline opinion is that AI is as big a deal as the internet or mobile, and only as big a deal as the internet or mobile. Both halves of that sentence matter.
    • If you make the internet comparison honestly, we are roughly in 1997: very exciting, most of it does not work yet, most of what people will build has not been built, and it is unclear how any of it will end up working.
    • Adoption is spread across a very wide distribution. Even among teenagers, only something like 15 to 20 percent are daily active users and another 20 percent weekly, with the majority saying they do not use it at all.
    • That spread maps onto the “jagged frontier” question of where AI works, where it does not, whether you can predict where it will work in advance, and whether you can even tell after the fact.
    • Software developers are the accountants seeing VisiCalc: for them everything has already changed. Most other professions are watching, intrigued but unsure what to do with it.
    • The AI labs are investing heavily in forward deployed engineers, consultancies, and professional services. Evans jokes that a forward deployed engineer is an Accenture outsourced developer who lives in San Francisco.
    • Companies do not have spare people sitting around to reimagine every internal workflow, so reinventing a business around AI is itself a project that needs consultants, which is why the most cutting-edge labs are funding exactly the firms everyone assumed AI would kill.
    • The central framework: separate the task from the job. Sometimes the task is the job (the elevator operator pressing a lever), and automating the task ends the job. Far more often, the task is only part of the job.
    • Amazon gets you the SKU once you know which SKU you want. Knowing which one to buy is a different job. Claude Code writes the code, but knowing what code and what features to build is the job.
    • A McKinsey or Bain engagement is not really about the deck. The deck is the task. The job is walking your enterprise, understanding the politics, talking to your customers, and telling you the truth.
    • The Jevons paradox is just price elasticity applied to labour. Make something cheaper to produce and you usually do far more of it, not the same amount with fewer people.
    • Excel did not give investment bankers shorter hours. iPhone SDKs did not shrink the number of engineers even though Apple writes 90 percent of the code for you. The number of accountants rose through every wave of automation.
    • The lump of labour fallacy: since 1800, each technology automates jobs and unlocks new ones. You can always see the job that disappears and never the new job, because it does not exist yet.
    • Evans is wary of argument from authority on jobs. He wants Dario Amodei’s view on where models go in the next 6 to 12 months, not necessarily his theory of labour markets and comparative advantage.
    • The doomer scenario of every company buying ChatGPT and firing everyone in two weeks misunderstands how enterprises work. Enterprise sales cycles run 18 months or more. Nobody is ripping out SAP overnight. The full transformation takes 3 to 10 years, sector by sector.
    • AGI and superintelligence are being quietly redefined to mean whatever works now. Larry Tesler’s theorem: AI is whatever machines cannot do yet, because once they can, people call it just software.
    • We have no theory of human intelligence, no theory of why these models work, and no theory of how much better they will get, so everyone is vibes-forecasting. Even if progress stopped tomorrow, what exists is already transformative and will roll out for a decade.
    • On value capture, Evans argues models show no network effects, so no single one runs away with the market. Persistent competition plus little real product differentiation means little pricing power.
    • Sam Altman’s pitch of selling intelligence on a meter like electricity ignores the brutal margin structure of utilities. Your TV maker does not pay the power company a cut of your bill.
    • The telecom analogy: a roughly trillion-dollar mobile industry spends 15 to 20 percent of revenue on capex, grew data consumption 1,500 to 2,000 times since 2010, and its stocks went nowhere for 25 years because it is a low-margin commodity utility.
    • The elemental question: does the model do the whole thing, or does it need thousands of different apps built by different people? If it needs apps, the labs cannot build them all, just as Microsoft did not, so it looks more like AWS than like Windows.
    • If the product is a commodity, distribution becomes the moat. Google pushes Gemini through its surfaces, Meta sprayed AI across its apps and quietly ranked between ChatGPT and Gemini in usage, and incumbents with distribution have a structural edge.
    • Browsers are the warning: Microsoft used distribution to win the browser war, then it turned out winning browsers did not matter because the value was further up the stack.
    • Apple Intelligence, as shown at WWDC 2024, was the most compelling vision of a personal AI assistant Evans has seen. Apple could not ship it, but neither could anyone else, because tool-using on-device agents with no hallucinations across thousands of apps is genuinely hard.
    • The model is “the dumb thing underneath” that powers a feature. The same commodity model can sit beneath both Gemini on Android and Apple Intelligence on iOS while the products and distribution differ entirely.
    • The anti-AI backlash is a big fuzzy mess. Some is real (local electricity bills, deepfakes, real job anxiety), some is sort of true, and some is simply false.
    • The data-center water panic is largely fake. A Livermore lab study put US data-center water consumption at about 0.017 percent of US water use. Local well conflicts are planning problems, not data-center problems.
    • We have shockingly little hard data. The model labs do not publish meaningful usage numbers. There is no public daily active user figure for ChatGPT, so economists are reverse-engineering effects from government surveys.
    • Real new harms do appear with each wave. A teenager could not use Photoshop to make explicit fakes of every classmate and send them to the whole school in an afternoon. Now they can, and turn them into video.
    • The UK Post Office Horizon scandal (buggy Fujitsu software wrongly showing cash shortfalls, leading to prosecutions, bankruptcies, and suicides) is a reminder that every technology brings new ways to ruin lives, by malice or by accident.
    • You cannot reliably predict what gets exposed. In 1997 people thought taxis were safe from the internet and newspapers would be fine. The opposite happened. Today, “AI-proof” jobs like personal trainer may not be as safe as they look.
    • Uber and Airbnb show that similar-sounding companies can have very different market impact. Uber demolished and then grew the taxi market, while Airbnb’s effect on hotels was fairly marginal because business travel still wants a hotel.
    • Every new technology first lets you do the old thing but more, then unlocks things that were not possible before. Recorded music revenue is U-shaped: first “what if I do not pay 15 dollars for a CD,” then “what if 15 dollars a month gives me all the music there is.” Spotify is not an online music store, it is something else.
    • Coding was supposed to be one of the last things automated, and instead it is the most transformed role of all, which is itself a lesson in how badly we predict exposure.
    • Practical advice: do not stick your head in the sand. Dive in, submerge yourself, and come out understanding what you can do with it. Going into a shrinking job market announcing you will never use AI is not the right posture.
    • Evans’s honest coda: he struggles to find AI use cases because his job is synthesis and precise retrieval, the things models are worst at. He uses it for proofreading, images, redecorating his apartment, and dictation. He is the lawyer looking at VisiCalc.

    Detailed Summary

    AI is as big as the internet, and we are living in 1997

    Evans opens with the opinion he calls his most controversial: AI is as big a deal as the internet or mobile, and only as big a deal as the internet or mobile. To some in tech that sounds dismissive, as if he is underrating a once-in-history event. His reply is that smartphones and the internet were themselves enormous, and we are talking over the internet right now. The deeper point is the comparison’s timing. If this is like the internet, then it is like the internet in 1997: thrilling, but most of it does not work yet, most of what will be built has not been built, and nobody knows how the pieces will fit. His latest 80-slide presentation, he jokes, is essentially 80 ways of saying “we do not know,” which is partly facetious and partly the entire point.

    The jagged frontier and the wide spread of adoption

    Adoption is not uniform, it is a wide distribution. Some people in tech have bought clusters of Mac minis and stopped using Google, while most people outside tech who use AI at all touch it once every week or two. Even among 13 to 18 year olds, daily active use sits around 15 to 20 percent, weekly use adds another 20 percent, and roughly 60 percent say they do not use it. That spread maps onto what Evans calls the jagged frontier: whether a given task works, whether you can predict in advance that it will work, whether it is intuitive, and whether you can even tell after the fact. Software developers are the accountants who just saw VisiCalc, living in a clear before-and-after. Everyone else is somewhere on the curve, picking it up to varying degrees and a little puzzled about what it is for.

    Why the AI labs are buying consultancies

    One of the most counterintuitive trends is that the leading labs are pouring money into forward deployed engineers and professional services, the very category many assumed AI would erase. Evans’s explanation is grounded in how companies actually operate. Firms do not keep spare people sitting around to redesign stores, hunt down churn, or rebuild a tech stack, which is exactly why they hire Bain, BCG, McKinsey, Accenture, or Infosys when a big project appears. Reimagining every internal workflow around AI, then actually plugging vertical and horizontal systems together and retraining people, is itself a multi-month project requiring people you do not have. So the work gets outsourced, and the most advanced labs are funding the firms that do it. His joke lands the point: a forward deployed engineer is a statistician, or an Accenture developer, who happens to work in San Francisco.

    The task versus the job

    This is the spine of the conversation. Ask what the hard part of a job really is. Sometimes the task is the job: the elevator attendant’s whole job was driving the car, the task got automated, the job ended. Much more often the visible task is only a slice. Amazon gets you the SKU once you know which SKU you want, but knowing what to buy is a separate job. Claude Code writes the code, but deciding what to build, for whom, and how to take it to market is the job. A consulting deck is the task, while the reason you pay Bain is for them to walk your company, understand its politics, talk to your customers, and tell you the truth. Evans notes you can already generate a bad McKinsey deck with AI, and the LinkedIn grifters who do are missing that the deck was never the thing you were buying.

    Jevons paradox and the lump of labour fallacy

    The Jevons paradox is just price elasticity applied to labour: make something cheaper to do and you usually do much more of it. Excel did not hand junior bankers their Friday afternoons off, it expanded the work. iPhone developers write a fraction of the raw code because Apple wrote the drivers and file system, and there are not a tenth as many engineers, there are far more. The count of accountants climbed through adding machines, punch cards, mainframes, databases, ERP, spreadsheets, and cloud. The lump of labour fallacy is the broader version: since 1800 every technology has removed jobs and unlocked new ones, the removed jobs usually look bad in hindsight, the new ones tend to be better, and GDP keeps rising. You can always see the job that disappears and never the one that does not exist yet.

    The jobs question, Dario, and the enterprise sales cycle

    On the coming jobs apocalypse, Evans is cautious about argument from authority. Running an AI lab makes Dario Amodei worth listening to on where models go in the next 6 to 12 months, not necessarily on labour economics and comparative advantage. The doomer image of companies buying ChatGPT and firing everyone within weeks misreads reality: enterprise sales cycles run 18 months or longer, nobody is tearing out SAP overnight, and the full transformation will take 3 to 10 years, sector by sector, as people slowly work out what to do. He points to the lag in software itself. Many SaaS companies founded the day before ChatGPT launched could have been built a decade earlier, and were not, because the delay was someone realizing a problem existed and that this was the way to solve it.

    Redefining AGI and superintelligence

    Evans is skeptical of the moving terminology. He cites Larry Tesler’s line that AI is whatever machines cannot do yet, because the moment they can, people call it just software. Machine learning, image recognition, and sentiment analysis all got reclassified as not really AI once they worked, the same way jet airliners were once high technology and are now just planes. AGI is now often quietly redefined as doing some percentage of economically valuable work, which a 1975 mainframe also did, rather than anything about consciousness or a soul. Whether we reach human-level intelligence is, in his view, genuinely unknowable right now. The reassuring point is that you do not need to resolve it. Even if models hit a brick wall tomorrow, what already exists is transformative and will take a decade to deploy.

    Where the value accrues: commodity models and the telecom analogy

    Here Evans makes his most deterministic argument. Foundation models appear to lack network effects, so no single model runs away from the pack, competition persists, and product differentiation as users experience it is thin. Without differentiation or lock-in, where does pricing power come from? He skewers Sam Altman’s image of selling intelligence on a meter like electricity by pointing out that utilities have terrible margins and nobody pays the power company a cut of their TV. His telecom career supplies the analogy: mobile is a roughly trillion-dollar industry that spends 15 to 20 percent of revenue on capex, grew data traffic 1,500 to 2,000 times since 2010, and whose stocks went nowhere for 25 years because it is a low-margin commodity utility while the value sits up the stack with Apple and the app makers. If models are commodities and the real product is thousands of apps the labs will not build, the outcome looks like cloud, not like Windows.

    Distribution as the moat

    If the product is a commodity, distribution decides the winners. The web browser is the cautionary tale: the browser product is a thin wrapper around a rendering engine, tab browsing was the last real innovation 20-plus years ago, Microsoft used distribution to win, and then winning browsers turned out not to matter because the value was elsewhere. Now Google drives Gemini through its surfaces and Meta sprayed AI across its apps and, in survey data, sat between ChatGPT and Gemini in usage despite tech writing it off. An adequate product with great distribution and brand becomes a big deal, which is why OpenAI spent last year trying everything to build a flywheel before the giants defaulted everyone onto their own offering. The power of the default and sheer inertia do a lot of work.

    Apple Intelligence and the model as the dumb thing underneath

    Evans calls the Apple Intelligence segment of WWDC 2024 the most compelling vision of a personal AI assistant he has seen: tool-using, on-device, agentic, with no prompt injection or hallucinations across a standardized API spanning thousands of apps. Apple could not ship it, but neither could anyone else, because that is genuinely hard. The episode illustrates his framing that the model is “the dumb thing underneath” that powers a feature. The same commodity model can sit beneath Gemini intelligence on Android and Apple Intelligence on iOS, with different products, different distribution, and different decisions about what the feature should be. Apple has a billion edge-capable devices, while Google’s “coming soon to our most powerful devices” really means it will not work on most Android phones.

    The anti-AI backlash, water, and real harms

    The backlash, Evans says, is a big fuzzy mess of very different things. Some is tangible, like a higher local electricity bill in a small number of places. Some is essentially fake, like the water panic. He dug into a Livermore lab study putting US data-center water use at about 0.017 percent of national consumption. Local well conflicts are planning failures, not data-center failures. The jobs piece is genuinely unresolved, with charts pointing both ways and a youth employment slowdown that shows up regardless of degree or AI exposure. He stresses how little hard data exists, since the labs publish no meaningful usage numbers and there is no public daily active user figure for ChatGPT. He compares the moment to the social media backlash, compressed, where some fears were true, some half true, and some simply false. The real new harms are real, though: deepfakes let a teenager generate explicit fakes of an entire school in an afternoon, and the UK Post Office Horizon scandal shows how buggy software plus institutional denial can destroy lives.

    You cannot predict what gets exposed, and what to actually do

    Evans dismisses the O*NET-style exercise of scoring what percentage of each profession AI can do as deluded, the modern version of the expert-systems problem, where you try to describe a job as 700 logical steps and it never works. You cannot say a senior partner’s work is 17 percent automatable. The history of prediction is humbling: in 1997 people thought taxis were safe from the internet and newspapers would simply save on printing, and both were wrong. Coding, supposedly one of the last things to automate, became the most transformed role of all. Personal trainers might be next once your phone can watch your form. His closing advice is to presume radical uncertainty and act anyway: do not retreat into sneering moral superiority, dive in, internalize what the tools can do, and make yourself a great hire. He ends with a candid admission that his own synthesis-and-retrieval job is exactly what AI is currently worst at, so he is the lawyer looking at VisiCalc, sure it changes everything while not personally making spreadsheets all day.

    Notable Quotes

    “My most controversial opinion is that I think that AI is as big a deal as the internet or mobile, and only as big a deal as the internet or mobile.”

    Benedict Evans, stating the thesis that frames the whole conversation

    “If you’re going to make the internet comparison, it’s like we’re in 1997. It’s very exciting. Most stuff kind of doesn’t work yet. Most of the stuff that people are going to do hasn’t been built yet.”

    Benedict Evans, on why confident predictions about AI winners are usually wrong

    “You can’t look at a senior partner at a law firm and say, well, 17 percent of their work could be automated. This is horseshit.”

    Benedict Evans, on why O*NET-style job-exposure scoring fails

    “Claude Code can write you the code, but what code do you want? It can make you the features, sure, but what features do you want? Who’s your customer? What’s the right product for that customer?”

    Benedict Evans, drawing the line between the task and the job

    “There’s this quote from Sam Altman where he said we’re going to be selling AI intelligence on a meter like water or electricity, and you look at this and think, my dear sweet child, you need me to explain the margin structure of the utility industry to you.”

    Benedict Evans, on why model labs may lack pricing power

    “The model is just the dumb thing underneath that powers the feature. The model is the commodity that powers different decisions about what the feature should be.”

    Benedict Evans, on why value moves up the stack to applications

    “Every time we have a new technology it automates away a bunch of jobs, and then that automation unlocks a bunch of new jobs, and you don’t know the new job because it doesn’t exist yet.”

    Benedict Evans, on the lump of labour fallacy and 200 years of automation

    “Don’t stick your head in the sand and say I hate all of this stuff. That gives you a great feeling of moral superiority, but that’s not going to help. What helps is you diving into this and coming out understanding what you can do with it.”

    Benedict Evans, on what to actually do about AI right now

    “AI is good at stuff that computers are bad at, and bad at stuff that computers are good at.”

    Benedict Evans, quoting an observation that explains why he struggles to use AI in his own work

    This is a curated set of pulls, not a transcript. To hear the full argument in context, including the telecom and recorded-music charts and the lightning round, watch the full conversation on YouTube here.

    Related Reading

  • Vibe Coding Hardware: Naval, Guillermo Rauch, Blake Scholl, and Max Hodak on AI-Designed Jet Engines, Vertical Integration, China’s Open-Source Bet, and Why Humans Become Verifiers

    This is part two of Naval Ravikant’s conversation with frontier founders Guillermo Rauch of Vercel, Blake Scholl of Boom Supersonic, and Max Hodak of Science. Where the first part argued that you should waste tokens to save time and that the job of an engineer is now to build the factory rather than the output, this segment drags that thesis out of pure software and into atoms. The question on the table is what happens to hardware when models can vibe code the spreadsheets, the simulations, and eventually the step files and PCB layouts that aerospace, semiconductors, and biotech are built on. This segment is one half of the discussion, and you can watch and read the full episode here. The full conversation is on the Naval Podcast YouTube channel.

    TLDW

    Blake Scholl describes how Boom Supersonic took hardware engineering workflows that used to live in siloed Excel spreadsheets and VBScript on individual laptops, with handoffs done by email like it was the 1990s, and turned them into versioned, testable software. The new model is that software engineers build the architectures and the tools while hardware engineers vibe code their own domain-specific pieces, which collapsed a turbine-blade analysis that once took one engineer one day per blade into something where two engineers can design an entire jet engine in real time. Naval generalizes this into the cataclysm of enterprise software: there is no longer a startup that can sell you hardware collaboration tools because companies just code the exact thing they need on demand, and even spreadsheets are cooked because they only existed as a proxy for custom software nobody could previously afford to build. Blake predicts that within 2026 AI will move from generating software to generating step files and PCB layouts, which reshapes mechanical and electrical engineering. The group debates China’s open-source push as a way to neutralize Silicon Valley’s software advantage and protect its hardware and supply-chain superiority, lands on the point that if you fall behind on generating software you fall behind on generating everything, and Guillermo notes that frontier coding intelligence still dominates real usage while cheaper models like Gemini win at scale for support and browser automation. Max Hodak explains Science’s vertical integration, including a captive MEMS foundry on the East Coast, because the most innovative hardware cannot be bought off the shelf, and argues that software still needs hands since a model that cannot make physical things hits real boundaries. The conversation closes on the shift from writing to verifying: junior engineering got absorbed by agents while juniors got promoted, the same way paralegals could be seen as fired or promoted, and humans across law, engineering, and operations are becoming the verifiers who sign off on systems they did not write line by line.

    Thoughts

    The most important shift in this segment is that vibe coding stops being a software-industry story and becomes a deep-tech story. In part one the examples were Postgres, ClickHouse, and deploy targets. Here Blake Scholl is talking about turbine blades that change shape when they heat up, and the brutal fact that converting between cold and hot geometry, and between aerodynamics and structures, used to eat one engineer for one full day per blade in an engine that has a thousand blades. That is the kind of math that quietly kills ambition. When he says two engineers can now design an entire jet engine because the structural and aerodynamic results update in real time as you change the geometry, that is not a productivity improvement, it is a change in what a small team is allowed to attempt. The interesting move is the division of labor: software engineers build the architecture and the framework because they understand systems and separation of concerns, and the hardware engineers vibe code the pieces only they understand. Nobody has to become both.

    Naval’s “cataclysm of enterprise software” is the most investable idea in the episode, and it is darker than it sounds for anyone selling B2B tools. His claim is that the entire category of internal collaboration software is being eaten from the inside, because a company that can generate exactly the tool it needs on any given day will not pay a vendor for an approximation of that tool. His follow-on that even spreadsheets are cooked is the sharpest version of the point. The spreadsheet won for forty years precisely because it was the closest thing to custom software that a non-programmer could produce. Remove the constraint that custom software is expensive and the spreadsheet loses its reason to exist. The counterweight, which the group raised in part one with the block-economy thesis, is that the infrastructure primitives agents reach for get more valuable, not less. So the safe place to build is not the collaboration layer on top, it is the primitive underneath.

    The China discussion is the geopolitical center of the conversation and it lands on a genuinely uncomfortable insight. The argument is that China leans into open-source models not only because it is a model or two behind, but because open weights neutralize Silicon Valley’s software advantage and let China lean on what it already dominates: hardware, supply chains, and component ecosystems. If software can be generated on demand from open models, then the country with the factories wins the stack. The sharpest line is that if you fall behind on the ability to generate software, you fall behind on the ability to generate everything, because software is now upstream of every hardware pipeline. That reframes the open-versus-closed debate as a question about who controls the means of producing the means of production. It also quietly flatters the American frontier labs, since the same logic says self-improvement requires frontier coding models, and on that narrow axis the consensus at the table is that the Chinese models are not yet in the race.

    Max Hodak provides the necessary cold water, and it is the most grounding contribution in the episode. Everyone else is describing software eating the design layer, and Max points out that you still have to make the thing. Science owns a captive MEMS foundry on the East Coast not as a flex but because there was no other way to do the packaging and assembly for products that approach a single block of covalently bonded matter. His framing that the software still needs hands is the real boundary condition on all the AI-eats-everything talk: a model can be smarter than every engineer in the building and still be unable to deposit a layer, bond a wafer, or pass a regulatory inspection. The optimistic version, which he also makes, is that he has instrumented the foundry so that as models improve, the gains show up immediately in cell engineering and material science. The pessimistic reading is that the physical world remains a hard rate limiter, and the companies that own the atoms will capture more of the surplus than the companies that only own the bits.

    The closing thread on verification is where the whole conversation resolves into a job description for humans. Guillermo’s point that the biggest problem in software is mountains of slop arriving as a pull request, and that the answer is not pretending to read every line but being able to say “I am signing off on the consequences of this PR, and I wrote the harness, the simulations, the proofs, and the type checkers that let me,” is the most practically useful idea in the episode. It generalizes cleanly. The lawyer you trust is not the one who wrote every clause by hand, it is the one putting their reputation on the line that the document is sound. The production engineer who gets paged at 3am is the one signing off that the system is safe to ship. As models absorb the junior tier of every knowledge profession, the surviving human role is the verifier who carries the accountability. That is a promotion for the people who can hold it and an extinction event for the people whose value was doing the work nobody now needs done by hand.

    Key Takeaways

    • The factory framing from part one carries straight into hardware: you are judged on whether you build the system that produces multiplicative outputs, not on the single artifact, and the real multiplier was always 100x or 1000x, not 10x.
    • AI completely changes the role of software and hardware developers rather than just speeding either one up.
    • A huge amount of hardware engineering lives in complex Excel spreadsheets and VBScript on individual engineers’ laptops, with no source control, no automated testing, and handoffs done manually over email. It is software that is not treated as software.
    • Boom Supersonic’s move from day one was to turn traditional hardware engineering workflows into real software frameworks that are automatable and repeatable, to drive down the cost of iteration.
    • The old bottleneck was never being able to afford enough software engineers to build those frameworks. AI removes that constraint.
    • The new model: software engineers create the architectures because they understand systems, algorithms, and separation of concerns, and hardware engineers vibe code the domain pieces only they understand.
    • A turbine blade is cold when it starts and hot when it runs, so it changes shape, and you must design both the cold and hot geometry across aerodynamics and structures. Classically that was one engineer, one day, for one blade, in an engine with a thousand blades.
    • With software and hardware people combined, you can now change blade geometry and see the structural and aerodynamic results in real time, which lets two engineers design an entire jet engine.
    • Naval’s cataclysm of enterprise software: no startup can sell hardware collaboration tools anymore because companies just code the exact thing they need at any given time.
    • Even spreadsheets are cooked. Spreadsheets won only because nobody could build custom software, so a spreadsheet full of VBScript was the closest available approximation. Remove the cost barrier and the approximation loses.
    • Engineers are moving from Excel to Python models that produce believable simulations of physical systems.
    • AI can generate software today, but within 2026 it is expected to generate step files and PCB layouts, which opens up mechanical and electrical engineering as the next frontier.
    • The hardware software boon is biggest for small gadget and parts companies that historically shipped bad software because they could not afford good software. Now they can ship good-enough software, or skip the human front end entirely and expose hardware agentically for voice and agent control.
    • China goes all in on open-source models partly to neutralize Silicon Valley’s software edge: if software can be generated on demand from open weights, China’s hardware and supply-chain superiority stops being offset by a software disadvantage.
    • Other reasons cited for China’s open-source push: it is a model or two behind, it is distilling models, and the government has a history of funding efforts that lift the whole ecosystem, especially in network-effect businesses.
    • Open-source heft is coming almost entirely from China. OpenAI is not open, Grok publishes models but is seen as a model or two behind, Google’s local models are not very competitive, and Anthropic is not known for open-source releases.
    • Without frontier coding models you do not get self-improvement, and if you fall behind on generating software you fall behind on generating everything, because software now sits upstream of every hardware pipeline.
    • Real AI gateway usage shows open models do get used, but the top is heavily dominated by frontier intelligence.
    • Frontier intelligence at the right cost and performance slaps at scale. Gemini models are underrated and excel as industrial production models for support tasks and browser automation, even if they are not the top pick for coding.
    • For pushing the frontier you need the best possible coding model, which is now only two or three models, and the Chinese models are not among them.
    • One contrarian view at the table: use DeepSeek for 97% of tasks because it is cheap, run it repeatedly for harder problems, and reserve frontier models for the most advanced work. The counterargument: intelligence is an unalloyed good, mistakes are invisible and costly, and a smarter model is always cheaper than a person, so you default to the most intelligent option.
    • Always wanting the most intelligent model risks creating a monopoly or oligopoly in AI, because when two models disagree you cannot tell which is right, so you trust the smarter one and stop asking the weaker one.
    • Vertical integration is forced, not chosen: if you cannot buy it, you have to make it. The preference is always to buy when a vendor offers a service at a great price, like PCBs from Asia.
    • The closer a product gets to a single block of covalently bonded matter, the better it performs: lower power, smaller, higher performance, longer lasting. The components for that level of integration simply are not available to buy.
    • Science owns a captive MEMS foundry on the East Coast, bought because there was no other way to do the packaging and assembly the company needed.
    • One of the biggest near-term AI impacts inside hardware companies is regulatory and documentation work: tracing which of thousands of ISO standards apply used to occupy a regulatory and quality team for months, and now AI just knows.
    • Software still needs hands. A model can be smarter than us and still hit real boundaries if it cannot physically make things, which is why Science has instrumented its foundry so model improvements show up immediately in cell engineering and material science.
    • Basic legal work is already going away. People have stopped asking lawyers for NDAs and routine agreements, because law is spaghetti code in English with no real APIs, and the basic tasks are handled by AI.
    • Junior engineers got promoted to senior engineers while junior engineering itself got taken over by agents. The same framing applies to paralegals: fired, or promoted to senior lawyers who now spend their time thinking about the law.
    • What you value in a lawyer is a trusted authority who puts their reputation on the line, not someone who read every clause. The same trust model is coming to engineering.
    • The biggest problem in software engineering today is mountains of slop arriving as a pull request. The old norm of reading every line of a PR is gone.
    • The new standard is being able to say “I understand and I am signing off on the consequences of this PR,” backed by the test harness, simulations, proofs, and type checkers you built, even without reading every line.
    • Embrace a world where code is spaghetti you do not fully understand, but build the evaluators that give confidence, and rely on production engineers to sign off because someone gets paged if the system goes down.
    • Creating software is easy from zero to one. The hard part is a thousand days from now: is it secure, tested, production grade, and performant, and are you still motivated to invest the tokens to maintain it in prod?
    • Humans are becoming verifiers. The same way models are trained on good verification data, the old functions of lawyers, engineers, and operations people are moving to verifying the stack and standing behind it.

    Detailed Summary

    Turning Hardware Engineering Into Software

    Blake Scholl opens by describing how AI completely changes the role of software and hardware developers at Boom Supersonic. From day one the company tried to take traditional hardware engineering workflows and turn them into software. For anyone who has not been around hardware engineering, he explains that an enormous amount of it happens in complex Excel spreadsheets on individual engineers’ laptops, sometimes with VBScript code, all of which is actually software but is not treated as software. There is no source control, no automated testing, and when an aerodynamicist hands work to a structures engineer it is done manually with a spreadsheet over email, like it is the 1990s. Boom started building software frameworks to automate and make those flows repeatable so the cost of iteration would drop, but progress was slow because the company could never afford enough software engineers.

    Two Engineers, One Jet Engine

    The mind-blowing change, in Blake’s words, is a new division of labor. Software engineers create the architectures because they understand systems, algorithms, and separation of concerns, and then hardware engineers vibe code the pieces that draw on what they uniquely know about hardware. The result is wildly different productivity for small teams. His example is the turbine blade: it starts cold and gets bigger as it heats up in operation, so you have to design both the cold shape and the hot shape, converting between them and between structures and aerodynamics. Classically that was one engineer, one day, for one blade of analysis, in a jet engine with a thousand blades, which means you simply could not do much. Now, with software and hardware people working together, you can change blade geometry and see the structural and aerodynamic results in real time, which allows two engineers to design an entire jet engine.

    The Cataclysm of Enterprise Software

    Picking up on the point that software engineers now build the tools and architectures for everyone else, Naval names what he calls the cataclysm of enterprise software. There is no longer a startup that can build and sell hardware collaboration tools, because internally companies just code the right things they need at any given moment. Even spreadsheets are cooked, he argues, because the reason spreadsheets succeeded is that no one could build custom software, so a spreadsheet stuffed with VBScript functions was the closest available approximation. With that constraint gone, the proxy collapses. He notes he has personally moved almost entirely from Excel to Python models where he can get believable simulations of things.

    Generating Step Files and PCB Layouts

    The next frontier, Blake suggests, is the thing AI has not reached yet but probably will within 2026: today it can generate software, but soon it will generate step files and PCB layouts, and when it comes for mechanical and electrical engineering that will be a whole other thing nobody has seen yet. On the hardware side this is described as a particular boon for the many small gadget and parts companies that historically wrote bad software because they could not make great software. Now they can make good-enough software, or skip a human front end entirely and expose the hardware agentically, so that an agent accesses it and a person controls the hardware by voice.

    China’s Open-Source Bet and Hardware Superiority

    This leads into one of the reasons China is described as going all in on open-source models. With hardware superiority, complex supply chains, and deep component chains, China’s logic is that if it can generate software on demand it no longer suffers a software disadvantage against Silicon Valley. That is framed as not the only reason: China is also a model or two behind, it is distilling models, and the government has a history of funding efforts that lift the entire ecosystem, especially in network-effect businesses. Ironically, the open-source heft comes from China precisely because OpenAI is not open, Grok publishes models but is a model or two behind, Google’s local models are not very competitive, and Anthropic is not known for open releases. The deeper point is that without great frontier coding models you do not get self-improvement, and if you fall behind on the ability to generate software you fall behind on the ability to generate everything, because generating software is embedded in every piece of the hardware pipeline.

    Frontier Intelligence vs. Cheap Models

    Naval raises a dinner-table argument from the night before, where someone claimed you will use DeepSeek for 97% of things because it is cheap, run it repeatedly when you need more intelligence, and reserve OpenAI or Anthropic for the most advanced tasks. Naval pushes back: intelligence is an unalloyed good, you always want more of it, model mistakes are invisible, and a smarter model is always cheaper than a real person in real time, so you default to the most intelligent model available. He notes the downside is that this tends toward a monopoly or oligopoly, because when two models give different answers you often cannot tell which is correct, so you trust the smarter one and gradually stop asking the weaker one. Guillermo confirms with AI gateway data that open models do get used, but the top is heavily dominated by frontier intelligence. His caveat is that frontier intelligence at the right cost and performance slaps at scale: Gemini models are underrated but are excellent industrial production models for support tasks and browser automation, while for pushing the frontier you need the best possible coding model, now only two or three models, and the Chinese models are not in that set.

    Vertical Integration and the Captive MEMS Foundry

    Asked about his push into vertical integration and extreme urgency, Max Hodak explains that for many things you cannot buy what you need, so you have to make it. The preference is always to buy when a vendor offers a service at a great price, and he points to PCBs, which are basically free and available in unlimited quantity from Asia. But the closer a product gets to being a single block of covalently bonded matter, the better it is: lower power, smaller, higher performance, longer lasting. The components for that level of integration are not available, so to innovate beyond piecing together off-the-shelf parts you have to learn to do it yourself, which shows up as vertical integration. Science owns a captive MEMS foundry on the East Coast, bought because there was no other way to do the packaging and assembly work the company wanted.

    Software Still Needs Hands

    Max expects AI to heavily affect all of this over the next few years, though it is not quite there yet. Ironically, one of the biggest impacts already seen is in regulatory interactions and documentation: figuring out which of thousands of ISO standards apply to a product change, and tracing it through, used to occupy a regulatory and quality team for months, and now the AI just knows. But for things like the surgical program or the MEMS fab, he argues the software still needs hands. It will be smarter than us, but if it cannot make things, those are real boundaries. Science has instrumented its foundry and many other parts of the company so that as models get better, the improvement shows up immediately in cell engineering and material science.

    Lawyers, Paralegals, and the Promotion of Junior Work

    The discussion turns to law as a parallel to engineering. It has been a while since anyone at the table generated a basic legal document using a lawyer. Routine work like NDAs and standard agreements is gone, because law is essentially spaghetti code that contradicts itself and has no real APIs, expressed in complicated English. Junior engineers got a promotion to senior engineers while junior engineering itself was taken over by agents, and the same framing applies to paralegals: you can say they were fired, or you can say they were promoted to senior lawyers who now spend their time thinking about the law. What you actually value in a lawyer is a trusted authority who went to law school and puts their reputation on the line when they tell you a document is legit.

    Slop PRs, the Thousand-Day Problem, and Humans as Verifiers

    Guillermo argues the biggest problem in software engineering today is mountains of slop ending up as a pull request. The old meme of reading every line of a PR is gone. In infrastructure he wants engineers to be able to say they understand and are signing off on the consequences of a PR, backed by the test harness, simulations, proofs, and type checkers they wrote, so they have confidence it will be safe in production even without reading every line. There is a world where everyone embraces that the code is spaghetti nobody fully understands, but builds the evaluators that give confidence and relies on production engineers to say it is fine to ship, because someone gets paged if the system goes down. The further warning is that creating software is easy from zero to one, but a thousand days from now you have to ask whether it is secure, tested, production grade, and performant, and whether you are still motivated to invest the tokens to maintain it in prod. The resolution is that humans are becoming verifiers, the same way models are trained on good verification data, and the old functions of lawyers, engineers, and operations people are moving to verifying the stack and standing behind it.

    Notable Quotes

    “What I found is it completely changes the role of software and hardware developers.”

    Blake Scholl, on how AI reshaped engineering at Boom Supersonic.

    “If you want to hand something off from like an aerodynamicist to a structures engineer that’s done manually with like a spreadsheet over email. It’s the 1990s. It’s terrible.”

    Blake Scholl, describing the state of traditional hardware engineering workflows.

    “It allows two engineers to design an entire jet engine, which is just wildly different.”

    Blake Scholl, on collapsing turbine-blade analysis with real-time structural and aerodynamic feedback.

    “Even spreadsheets are kind of cooked, right? Because the reason spreadsheets were successful is that no one could build custom software.”

    Naval Ravikant, on the cataclysm of enterprise software.

    “Right now it can generate software, but soon it’ll be able to generate step files and PCB layouts. And when it comes for mechanical and electrical engineering, that will be a whole other thing that we haven’t seen yet.”

    Blake Scholl, on the next frontier for AI in hardware.

    “If you fall behind on your ability to generate software, you fall behind on the ability to generate everything.”

    Naval Ravikant, on why software now sits upstream of every hardware pipeline.

    “Anytime I’m working to push the frontier you need the best possible coding model, and that’s basically now like two or three models, and the Chinese are certainly not in it.”

    Guillermo Rauch, on where frontier coding intelligence actually lives.

    “You can’t buy it, so you got to make it somehow. The closer that our products get to being like a single block of covalently bonded matter, the better they’ll be.”

    Max Hodak, on why Science is forced into vertical integration.

    “The software still needs hands. It’s going to be smarter than us, but if it can’t make things, then those are real real boundaries.”

    Max Hodak, on the physical limits of AI in hardware.

    “You need to be able to say I am signing off on understanding the consequences of this PR, or I wrote the test harness, the simulations, the proofs, the type checkers, to be able to say even without reading this, I have confidence it’s going to be safe in production.”

    Guillermo Rauch, on what code review becomes in the age of slop PRs.

    “Creating software is really easy 0 to one. But think about a thousand days from now. Is it secure? Is it tested? Is it production grade? And are you still motivated to invest all of those tokens in maintaining it in prod?”

    On the long-term cost of software that is cheap to create and expensive to keep alive.

    Watch the full conversation on the Naval Podcast here.

    Related Reading

    • Full episode: The AI Industrial Revolution, the complete hour-long conversation this clip is drawn from, covering software factories, hardware, regulation, healthcare economics, autonomous companies, and creativity.
    • Part one: Waste Tokens to Save Time, the first half of this same conversation, where Naval, Guillermo Rauch, Blake Scholl, and Max Hodak argue that the job of an engineer is to build the factory and that pure software is not dead.
    • Boom Supersonic, Blake Scholl’s company building supersonic civilian aircraft and its own jet engines, the source of the turbine-blade and two-engineers example.
    • Science Corporation, Max Hodak’s company, whose captive MEMS foundry and surgical program anchor the vertical-integration argument.
    • Vercel, Guillermo Rauch’s company, whose AI gateway data informs the point about frontier intelligence dominating real usage.
    • Microelectromechanical systems (Wikipedia), background on the MEMS technology behind the captive foundry Max Hodak describes.

  • Raoul Pal: Why the Crypto Bull Run Is Just Starting, the AI Economic Singularity, and Why You Should Never Sell Bitcoin

    Macro investor and Real Vision co-founder Raoul Pal returned to the When Shift Happens podcast for episode 173 to argue that the recent crypto drawdown is a nasty correction inside a much larger bull market, not the end of the cycle. Across an hour and a half he ties together the AI capital race, the coming economic singularity, why layer one blockchains are a kind of universal basic equity, and the deceptively simple discipline that actually compounds wealth: buy, hold, and almost never sell.

    TLDW

    Pal frames everything through what he calls the universal code, the conversion of units of energy into units of intelligence, and says the global race to fund AI is so large that no government or company can stop feeding it capital. That liquidity, plus relentless currency debasement, is the engine under both the AI stocks going vertical and the crypto market that has lagged them. He calls the Bitcoin slide from 126K toward 60K a normal correction in a bull market, says liquidity is now reaccelerating, and argues smart contract layer ones (Ethereum, Solana, Sui) are the best risk-adjusted bet because the entire financial system and a coming swarm of AI agents will run on those rails, giving crypto an effectively infinite total addressable market. He explains why he added Zcash as a Bitcoin-with-privacy and quantum-proof trade, lays out his plan to launch an NFT fund built around grail digital art and NFT-backed lending, and makes a data-backed case that buying oversold dips and never selling beats trying to trade cycles. The conversation closes on a 70/30 bullish framework for 2026 and 2027 and a reflection on kindness.

    Thoughts

    The strongest idea in this conversation is not a price target, it is a reframe. Pal keeps pulling the camera back from “what will Bitcoin do this quarter” to “what is the organizing principle of the entire economy right now,” and his answer is the funneling of all available capital into anything that produces intelligence. Once you accept that frame, the buy-the-dip behavior in both AI equities and crypto stops looking like mania and starts looking like a rational response to a one-way game. The part worth sitting with is his game-theory claim that neither the US nor China can stop, and that even a spectacular failure like an OpenAI blowup would simply trigger an instant asset auction rather than a collapse, because no single player can be allowed to win outright. Whether or not that is fully true, it is a genuinely different mental model than the recession-and-bust cycle most investors carry around.

    His layer-one thesis is the most actionable takeaway and also the most quietly radical. The pitch is that for the first time ordinary people can own a piece of the core infrastructure that the machine economy will be built on, the way you never got to own a slice of TCP/IP or the open web. He calls this universal basic equity and treats it as humanity’s pension plan. The honest tension he admits is that the racy returns may not be in the boring base layer at all, and that the truly investable winners of this era, the private stablecoin companies, are largely closed off to retail. So the layer-one trade is partly a consolation prize for the fact that the best businesses are unreachable. That is a more candid admission than most crypto bulls will make.

    The behavioral core of the episode is the most useful for a normal reader, and it is almost embarrassingly simple. Pal has been in markets for 35 years and says he does not know a single person who reliably buys bottoms and sells tops, including the legends, who he points out made most of their money on management fees rather than heroic trades. His prescription is to add only when the asset is one to two standard deviations oversold on its long-term log trend, otherwise do nothing, and to treat patience as an action rather than inaction. The line that does the most work is “the market owes you nothing.” It quietly dismantles the entitlement that drives people to overtrade, chase, and burn emotional energy on a strategy that the data says underperforms simply holding.

    Where a reader should keep some skepticism is the certainty. Pal assigns the bull case a 70 percent probability and the bear case 30, but the bear case he sketches (Middle East war reignites, inflation forces tightening, liquidity gets starved, the intelligence buildout slows) is not a minor footnote, it is the whole structure failing at once. The thesis also leans hard on the assumption that AI agents will become massive on-chain economic actors, which is plausible but still mostly forward-looking rather than observed. The value here is the framework, not the forecast. If you take one thing, take the energy-into-intelligence lens and the standard-deviation discipline, and hold the specific tickers and timelines loosely.

    Key Takeaways

    • Pal’s central frame is the universal code: the universe, and now the economy, continuously converts units of energy into units of intelligence, and capital flows to whatever produces the most intelligence.
    • The AI buildout is a race of nations and corporations that nobody can exit. Game theory means neither the US nor China can stop, because the other side would gain a decisive advantage.
    • Even a catastrophic AI failure would not break the trend. If OpenAI ran out of money, its assets would be auctioned instantly to multiple buyers so no single company could double its compute and win the whole game.
    • The economic singularity is the point where institutions and the way we measure the economy can no longer keep up with the speed of technology, made worse when AI and robots are added to the population as economic actors.
    • AI is the first real-world example of Reed’s law, the exponential of the exponential, where most past technology followed the slower Metcalfe’s law log channel.
    • By around 2028, roughly five to six years after AI went mainstream, AI will have produced more words than all of humanity has produced in sum total since the Gutenberg press.
    • The current run is funded by cash flow, not debt. Unlike the late-1990s tech boom, the buildout is paid for out of the earnings of the most cash-generative firms in history.
    • Chips and energy are the binding constraints. Companies report being booked out three years and beyond, and xAI is reportedly handing older data centers to Anthropic because no one can get enough compute.
    • Pal expects the Fed to run a Greenspan-style playbook, cut rates and then get out of the way, letting a productivity miracle grow the economy faster than the debt pile so debt to GDP falls.
    • Bitcoin falling from 126K toward 60K is a nasty correction in a bull market, not a bear market. Pal has seen many 50 percent Bitcoin drawdowns since 2013, and altcoins always fall further on the risk curve.
    • The 2025 to 2026 correction has been choppy and slow rather than the fast V-shape of 2021, which is part of why sentiment feels so bad.
    • Crypto lagged because liquidity is finite. The government shutdown withdrew liquidity, which hits crypto with about a three-month lag, while AI capex and Chinese gold buying sucked capital away.
    • Liquidity is now reaccelerating in the US, China, and globally, which Pal sees as the reason the worst is likely over for crypto.
    • The birth of economic agents in late 2024 gives crypto an effectively infinite total addressable market, since agents will be economic actors that hold treasuries, make payments, and transact on-chain.
    • Smart contract layer ones are Pal’s preferred bet. He compares the structure to operating systems and cloud, where value concentrates into three to five major players plus a few specialists.
    • He calls owning layer ones universal basic equity and humanity’s pension plan, the chance to own the rails the agentic economy will run on, something the internet never offered retail.
    • Discounted cash flow analysis is the wrong tool for valuing a blockchain. The whole purpose of the network is to be the cheapest, fastest, and most programmable, so high fees are a bug, not a strength.
    • Pal measures layer ones by intelligence density: number of developers, programmability, speed to finality, applications per user, and the ratio of stablecoins to total value locked as stored energy.
    • Only three tokens maintained economic density when the market fell 80 percent: Ethereum, Solana, and Sui. ETH is the safe Microsoft-like choice, Solana is faster and cheaper, Sui is earlier but extremely fast and programmable.
    • Pal added Zcash in the correction as a Bitcoin-with-privacy trade. The left-curve case is simple privacy value, the right-curve case is that it is also quantum-proof and a hedge against AI-enabled state surveillance.
    • He admits he did not execute the Zcash buy well, kept meaning to add more while traveling, and watched it run up 50 percent. He treats it as a small position, not a portfolio overhaul.
    • On Hyperliquid he is complimentary but uninvested, because he does not trade, use perps, or use leverage, and he expects Robinhood and Coinbase to compete hard for that niche.
    • DeFi is better suited to machines than humans. Agents may not even need front ends or websites, just low-friction access to swap across multiple stablecoins and currencies instantly.
    • DeFi is not dead despite mega-hacks. Pal argues hacks force better products, and notes that banks quietly absorb theft losses too, so the answer is to build more secure systems.
    • The entire financial system is moving to blockchain rails because they are the most efficient way to operate, a prediction Pal first made in 2014 before smart contracts existed.
    • Pal is launching an NFT fund focused on grail assets (one-of-one alien CryptoPunks, top artists) trading from roughly 600K to tens of millions, plus a convex middle tier of artists with social consensus.
    • He names artists like Dies with the most likes (whom he compares to a Hunter S. Thompson of art) and Kim Asendorf, whose work uses tokens at the pixel level.
    • The fund will also lend against NFTs for yields around 15 percent or more, acquiring assets cheaply if borrowers default and recycling yield into emerging artists.
    • His real estate analogy: a smaller NFT in a great collection is like a modest apartment in a billionaire neighborhood, while grails are the 20 million dollar penthouses that actually compound.
    • Bitcoin is partly an AI proxy because global savings should rise as AI lifts economic growth, and Bitcoin targets a share of those savings as a digital store of value.
    • The core mindset shift: if you know where the world is going and roughly where market cap is heading on the log trend, you would never sell, you would only ever accumulate.
    • Selling well is nearly impossible. Even if you take profit at two standard deviations overbought, adding it back at the bottom is something almost no one actually manages.
    • The people who made the most money in crypto are the ones who did not trade it. Pal cites holders who profited by doing essentially nothing while active traders lost their edge.
    • Pal’s discipline requires roughly two to three actions every five years: add when one to two standard deviations oversold, optionally trim when two standard deviations overbought, otherwise nothing.
    • By his standard deviation measure, Bitcoin and crypto are as cheap as they have been in their long-term uptrend versus the NASDAQ, which he reads as a signal to allocate more to crypto.
    • Fear and greed sat below 10 for the longest stretch in the index’s history during this correction, hitting its lowest reading ever, a classic oversold extreme.
    • His 2026 to 2027 bull case stacks stablecoin explosion, the Clarity Act getting signed, rising global liquidity, debt rollovers forcing money printing, a strong business cycle, AI agents, and a cheap entry point. He puts it at roughly 70/30 to the upside.

    Detailed Summary

    Two economies and the money illusion

    The conversation opens loosely with travel, stablecoin spending, and a riff on why people agonize over a 75 dollar airport breakfast but happily lose money on an NFT that drops 80 percent. Pal’s explanation is that we live in two economies at once. The crypto and tech economy can grow 50 to 150 percent in a good year, while the real economy grows around 2 percent. Money earned in the fast economy does not feel real, which is why people spend and speculate so freely with it. This sets up the rest of the episode, where Pal treats the fast economy as the place serious capital is being forced to go.

    The AI capital race nobody can stop

    Asked why the stock market only seems to go up, Pal gives two reasons: liquidity expansion and the most extraordinary capital event in human history, the funneling of all capital into intelligence. He frames it as a race of nations, corporations, and individuals that cannot be slowed because of game theory. No superpower can let another reach AGI alone, only the US and China can afford the race, and neither can stop without ceding the advantage. He even games out an OpenAI bankruptcy and concludes the US would instantly auction the assets across many buyers rather than let one firm double its compute and win, which is why he calls the whole thing too big to fail. The practical conclusion is blunt: buy the dip, because the structure forces capital to keep flowing.

    The economic singularity, Reed’s law, and electricity through sand

    Pal defines the economic singularity as the moment when institutions and our economic measurements can no longer cope with the speed of technology, especially once AI and robots count as population. He explains that almost all past technology adoption followed Metcalfe’s law, a log channel visible in the charts of Google, Facebook, and the NASDAQ, but AI is the first observed example of Reed’s law, the exponential of the exponential. To make it concrete he cites ARK research showing AI will, by roughly 2028, have produced more words per year than all of humanity, and notes Anthropic expected 10x growth and got 80x in a quarter. He marvels that we are putting electricity through silicon, the second most common element on Earth, and producing intelligence six orders of magnitude faster than a human neuron.

    Why crypto lagged and why the worst is over

    Pal explains the crypto underperformance mechanically. There is only so much liquidity, the government shutdown withdrew it, and that hits crypto with roughly a three-month lag, landing right in the middle of the October drawdown. At the same time, the AI buildout and Chinese gold buying pulled capital toward the longest-duration assets, leaving SaaS and crypto with nearly identical charts as they got left behind. His read for 2026 is that liquidity is now reaccelerating across the US, China, and the world, so there is nothing to worry about yet. The Bitcoin move from 126K toward 60K is, in his framing, a normal correction, comparable in length to the roughly six-month 2021 pullback that resolved into new highs.

    Layer ones as universal basic equity

    The heart of the investment thesis is that smart contract layer ones will accrue a growing share of crypto value as the investable infrastructure layer. Pal argues the entire financial system plus a coming swarm of AI agents will use these rails, giving crypto an infinite total addressable market. Like operating systems and cloud, value will concentrate into three to five chains plus specialists. He measures them by intelligence density rather than discounted cash flow, since the point of the network is to be cheapest and fastest. By his analysis only Ethereum, Solana, and Sui held economic density through an 80 percent drawdown. ETH wins on developers, security, and Lindy effects (the Microsoft you do not get fired for owning), Solana is faster and cheaper, and Sui is earlier but offers a different order of magnitude on speed, finality, and programmability. He frames owning a basket of four or five as humanity’s pension plan.

    Zcash, privacy, and the quantum hedge

    Pal reveals he added Zcash during the correction, alongside buying more Sui. He had said in December he would wait for it to pull back, and he did, though he admits he did not buy enough as it ran up 50 percent. His left-curve case is that privacy has real value and people will understand it more, making it essentially Bitcoin with privacy that could plausibly reach 5 to 10 percent of Bitcoin’s value. His right-curve case is that it is also quantum-proof and a hedge against governments wielding AI-enabled control over people. He dismisses the mid-curve worry that it will be banned, noting that the ban fear has shadowed crypto his entire career and never materialized.

    Agents, DeFi, and financial rails

    Pal argues the biggest future users of DeFi and crypto payments will be AI agents, whose scale is effectively infinite. Setting up agents himself, he keeps hitting walls that require small payments, and sees agents making endless micro-payments plus larger transactions, holding treasuries across multiple stablecoins and currencies, and rebalancing through DeFi instantly without any human involved. DeFi, he says, is actually better suited to machines than people, and may not even need front ends. On the wave of mega-hacks he is unbothered, arguing they force better products, that banks quietly absorb theft too, and that the financial system always migrates to the most efficient rails because that is how you make more money. He first predicted blockchain would become the financial industry’s infrastructure rail back in 2014.

    The NFT fund and grail digital art

    Pal is launching an NFT fund because so many people told him they want exposure but do not know how. The fund targets grail assets, the scarce one-of-one pieces with proven social consensus that trade from around 600K into the tens of millions, plus a convex middle tier of artists who have long-term proven value and could be wildly re-rated. He names Dies with the most likes, an Indiana artist cataloging the decline of middle America whom he likens to Hunter S. Thompson, and German artist Kim Asendorf, whose 3D works are built from individually tokenized pixels. The math of convexity is the draw: an artist re-rating from 20 to 200 ETH while ETH itself multiplies could compound into a 100x. The fund will also lend against NFTs for yields above 15 percent, acquiring assets cheaply on default and recycling yield into emerging artists, and will build a club connecting investors to artists. His real estate framing reassures smaller holders: owning a lesser piece in a top collection is like a modest flat in a billionaire neighborhood.

    Never sell, and the math of patience

    The behavioral spine of the episode is Pal’s argument that buying, holding, and accumulating beats trading cycles. He has built a Real Vision indicator that signals a buy when an asset is one to two standard deviations oversold on its log regression channel, and says it compounds at a stupid rate. The problem with selling is deciding how much and then having the discipline to buy it back at the bottom, which almost no one does. In 35 years he says he has never met anyone who reliably buys bottoms and sells tops, and notes the trading legends made most of their money on management fees. The people who made the most in crypto are the ones who did nothing. He reframes holding as patience, an active stance, and ties it back to the universal code: buying Bitcoin and doing nothing is the most energy-efficient trade you can make, while overtrading burns mental and emotional energy for a worse outcome. His advice to those tempted by AI’s vertical charts is to go play with AI and just hold your Bitcoin.

    The 2026 to 2027 outlook

    Pal closes the macro case by stacking the bull factors: a massive stablecoin expansion over the next 24 months, the Clarity Act getting signed and freeing builders, rising global liquidity, trillions in interest payments that force more money printing, a strong business cycle recycling earnings into speculative assets, the arrival of AI agents, and a cheap entry point with fear and greed at historic lows. He even floats a permanent resolution of Middle East conflict as part of the upside. The bear case is the mirror image: war reignites, inflation runs hotter, tightening starves capital, and the intelligence buildout slows. He puts the odds at roughly 70 percent bullish, 30 percent bearish, and says he does not see the bear case yet. The episode ends on a personal note about kindness, with Pal unable to name a single kindest act because, he says, everything is made of kindness.

    Notable Quotes

    “We’re going through the most extraordinary time in human history. Nothing else matters. This whole funneling of all capital into intelligence is the biggest race that’s ever happened.”

    Raoul Pal, on why capital keeps flooding into AI

    “The game is so big that nobody will stop.”

    Raoul Pal, on the game theory of the US and China AI race

    “This is how amazing it is. We’re putting electricity through sand and creating intelligence.”

    Raoul Pal, on silicon and the universal code

    “It’s a nasty correction in a bull market. I’ve been in crypto since 2013. I’ve seen many corrections, non-bear markets of 50% in Bitcoin.”

    Raoul Pal, on Bitcoin falling from 126K toward 60K

    “The market owes you nothing. You would just have to be better at doing a job.”

    Raoul Pal, on the entitlement that ruins crypto investors

    “This is humanity’s pension plan. We get to invest in the infrastructure rails of which all the agentic economy will run.”

    Raoul Pal, on owning layer one blockchains

    “The people who’ve made the most money out of crypto are the people who don’t trade it.”

    Raoul Pal, on why holding beats trading

    “Your job is to be a mercenary for your own capital. You want to make the most money over time.”

    Raoul Pal, on why no one has to stay loyal to crypto

    “Bitcoin and crypto is as cheap as it has been in its long-term uptrend versus NASDAQ.”

    Raoul Pal, on the relative value signal he watches

    This is a compressed look at a wide-ranging conversation. Watch the full episode on When Shift Happens here for Pal’s complete reasoning, the charts he references, and the back-and-forth that the summary above leaves out.

    Related Reading

    • Real Vision the financial media platform Raoul Pal co-founded, where his Global Macro Investor research and exponential age thesis live.
    • Metcalfe’s law (Wikipedia) the network-value relationship Pal uses to model the log regression channel for crypto.
    • Reed’s law (Wikipedia) background on the exponential-of-the-exponential growth Pal says AI is the first real-world example of.
    • Technological singularity (Wikipedia) context for the economic singularity Pal argues is now only about four years away.
    • Zcash the privacy coin Pal added in the correction as a Bitcoin-with-privacy and quantum-proof trade.

  • Dan Shipper’s Most Contrarian AI Predictions for 2026: Why the Job Apocalypse Is a Myth, SaaS Will Boom, PMs and Designers Win, and CLIs Are Already Over

    Dan Shipper, the CEO and founder of Every, returned to Lenny’s Podcast for round two of AI predictions. His last appearance produced one of the most prescient calls of the year: that non-technical people would build serious work inside Claude Code. He was unbelievably right. This conversation is the follow-up, a tour of his most contrarian forecasts for how AI is actually changing the way we work, who wins, who loses, and what almost every commentator is getting wrong about the next twelve to twenty-four months.

    TLDW

    Shipper argues that the AI job apocalypse is a myth, that SaaS is going to boom rather than die, that product managers and full-stack designers are the biggest winners of the agent era, that personal agents inside Codex and Claude Code will quietly replace the browser as the primary work surface, that every company will run a single shared super-agent in Slack instead of a fleet of per-user bots, that the CLI moment is already over, that pull requests are going to flood organizations from non-technical staff, that forward-deployed engineers who garden company agents become the new senior role, that GPT-5.5 still cannot match a real senior engineer on architectural judgment, that AI-generated internal writing is fine and probably better than what most humans produce, that CEOs and middle managers have not adapted yet but soon will be forced to, that the edge of AI lives wherever a curious human is using it rather than in San Francisco, and that the only durable strategy is to ride the models and keep playing with whatever ships next. The whole conversation balances aggressive AI bullishness with an equally strong bet on humans, on creativity, and on the unavoidable need for someone to care for every agent that gets deployed.

    Thoughts

    The most useful frame Shipper gives is that models commoditize yesterday’s human competence. Every time a frontier model crosses a new bar, the work that used to define seniority becomes cheap. The senior engineer who could carry a refactor in their head, the PM who could write a coherent strategy doc, the designer who could ship a polished landing page in a week. That competence is now frozen, codified, and available on tap. The interesting question is not whether models will keep eating tasks. They will. The interesting question is what humans do with the suddenly cheap raw material underneath them. Shipper’s answer is that humans climb the stack: they go up a level, find a new problem worth framing, and use the commoditized competence as feedstock for something that did not exist before. That treadmill is the actual engine of value creation, and it is why he can be simultaneously AI pilled and bullish on hiring.

    His SaaS take is the spiciest call of the episode and probably the most defensible. The crowd consensus is that agents will gut SaaS because an AI can just write the form filler, the dashboard, the workflow. Shipper points out the obvious counterfactual: agents do not reduce the number of people using SaaS, they increase it. A marketing lead who could never touch the data warehouse can now stand up a PostHog query through Codex. A founder who never opened Vanta can run a SOC 2 prep through an agent. The result is more users, more accounts, and a much fatter top of funnel for every horizontal tool. The second-order effect is even more interesting. When the SaaS tool runs inside the user’s agent, the user supplies the tokens. Vendor margins improve, not collapse. If he is right, the next two years are going to be brutal for the SaaS-is-dead thesis pieces and very good for the public software multiples.

    The PM and designer bet is where this gets personal for anyone in product. For a decade the bottleneck in shipping anything was engineering capacity. A PM with spiky product sense had to negotiate their vision through a roadmap, a sprint, a review, and a release. Designers had to convince an engineer that the third state of the empty screen was actually worth building. Both of those constraints are dissolving fast. A PM who can prompt Codex into a working prototype on Friday afternoon, then iterate it live in front of a customer on Monday, is doing the job of a small team. A designer who can ship a fully functional landing page in their own style, without negotiating with anyone, is suddenly the most leveraged person in the company. The scarce skill is no longer execution. It is taste, judgment, and the willingness to decide what is worth building. That has always been the real PM and design job. AI just stripped away the parts that were not.

    The quietest but most important prediction is that agents need humans, permanently. Every benchmark advance reveals a new layer of judgment the model cannot frame on its own. When the agent finishes the task, there is always a senior human who sees the deeper problem the model patched over. Shipper calls this gardening, and it is the basis for the new forward-deployed engineer role. The companies winning right now are the ones that put a real person next to every agent, watching what it does, course-correcting in Slack, and noticing when the output drifts. The dream of autonomous AI workflows is a stage in a journey, not the destination. The destination looks more like a thoughtful operator with a small cluster of agents they trust and constantly tend. That is a much more humane future than the discourse suggests, and it is the one Every is already living.

    The final advice, ride the models, sounds glib but is the single most actionable line in the episode. Most professional anxiety about AI dissolves the moment you actually use the newest model on real work. Most professional advantage accrues to the people who do that one thing consistently. The edge does not live in San Francisco where the labs build the things. It lives wherever a curious human meets a real workflow and discovers something the labs have not noticed. A PM in Iowa willing to try Codex on a Tuesday night can be further ahead than a research engineer who has only used the model on its evals. Pair that with Shipper’s closing motto, do things worth writing about and write things worth reading, and you have a pretty complete operating system for the next two years.

    Key Takeaways

    • The AI job apocalypse narrative is wrong. Models commoditize yesterday’s competence, then humans climb the stack and find new work to do with the cheap raw material.
    • Every has roughly doubled headcount in the last year despite being one of the most AI-forward companies in the world. The lived data point cuts directly against the doom thesis.
    • Shipper’s dual stance: simultaneously extremely AI pilled and very bullish on humans. He treats this as the only intellectually honest position right now.
    • Work will bifurcate. Companies will run one shared super-agent in Slack for everyone, and individuals will run their own personal agent inside Codex or Claude Code on their machine.
    • The personal agent inside Codex effectively becomes the new operating system. Instead of putting AI in the browser, you put a browser inside the AI.
    • The super-agent pattern is already real: Shopify has River, Ramp has its own, and Every runs Claudie inside Slack for internal consulting.
    • SaaS is not dying. Agents increase the user base of SaaS tools because non-technical people can finally drive them. Shipper would buy SaaS stocks today.
    • When SaaS runs inside an agent, the user brings their own tokens. Vendor margins improve because they no longer eat inference costs on every interaction.
    • The CLI era is already over. The magic was never the terminal. It was the AI plus the ability to see what the agent is doing. A good GUI captures the same benefits and more.
    • Pull requests are about to flood every company. Non-engineers can now ship code, run queries, and open tickets. Reviewing the output becomes the new bottleneck.
    • Open-source maintainers are already living in the future. Some receive thousands of agent-generated PRs per day and spin up thousands of Codex instances just to triage them.
    • Forward-deployed engineers are the new senior role. They live in Slack, garden the company’s agents, fix broken flows, and keep non-technical staff from doing damage.
    • Product managers with spiky product sense plus a little Codex fluency become extremely dangerous. Marcus at Every, formerly a PM at Axios, is the archetype.
    • Full-stack designers are the other big winner. They can build distinctive interfaces end to end without negotiating with engineering. The bottleneck on taste-driven product work disappears.
    • Designer hiring data has not yet caught up to the prediction. Shipper notes this and says check back in a year.
    • Sales is the role least changed so far. Top of funnel research has been turbocharged by agents, but the actual relationship and closing work remains human.
    • AI-generated internal writing is going mainstream and that is a good thing. Most humans are bad at strategy docs, quarterly plans, and PRs. AI drafts a coherent first pass that a human can refine.
    • Shipper says most of his email is now written by GPT-5.5 and Codex. He would honestly prefer the signature to say so.
    • Public writing, newsletters, and published essays still demand a human voice. Internal communication does not.
    • CEOs and middle managers have largely not adapted yet because their staff still does the work. That window is closing fast and will become an obvious career liability.
    • Your company will only go as far as your CEO goes in AI. The leadership ceiling becomes the AI ceiling.
    • Shipper’s senior engineer benchmark scores GPT-5.5 at roughly 62 out of 100. Real senior engineers sit at 85 to 90. Progress is real, but the gap on architectural judgment remains.
    • Models tend to patch problems locally instead of rewriting from first principles. A senior human still sees the deeper rework that the model avoids.
    • Every uses Notion-based agents to draft quarterly plans. The human edits, approves, and stands behind the output.
    • The hard rule on AI-generated communication: you have to read it and stand behind it before sending it. Pasting unread output is the only true no-no.
    • Every agent needs a human. Automation is a lie in the strong sense. The story of automation is the story of new and different humans being needed alongside it.
    • The reach test, organic daily usage, is the real signal that an AI product works. Benchmark scores are noisy. Daily reach is not.
    • Cursor’s SpaceX acquisition is a tell. Harnesses around models, not the models themselves, are where the strategic value is concentrating.
    • The edge of AI is not in San Francisco. It is wherever a real human meets a real workflow and discovers something the labs have not noticed yet.
    • A PM in Iowa willing to ride the models can be further ahead than a researcher in SF who only uses them on internal evals.
    • Ride the models. Use them for whatever you do. Try every new release the day it ships. That single behavior compounds faster than any other AI career strategy.
    • Shipper got bursitis, which he calls vibe coder elbow, from too much rapid agent-assisted coding while debugging his markdown editor Proof.
    • The closing motto for the year: do things worth writing about and write things worth reading.
    • Lenny will re-interview Shipper in roughly May 2027 to score the predictions.

    Detailed Summary

    Why The AI Job Apocalypse Is The Wrong Frame

    Shipper opens with the headline contrarian call. Benchmarks keep climbing. Models can now sustain seventeen-hour autonomous tasks at fifty percent accuracy. The pace is real and accelerating. None of that translates cleanly into mass unemployment. His mechanism: models codify yesterday’s human competence and make it cheap. The act of compressing past expertise into an API call is genuinely deflationary for the work it captures, but it is also raw material for the next layer of human work. He uses Every as his own data point. The company has roughly doubled in the past year despite being one of the most AI-forward outfits in media. Hiring goes up because agents create new categories of work that need humans, not because the agents fail. The discourse, he argues, is stuck modeling AI as substitution. The reality looks much more like leverage.

    The Bifurcation: Super-Agents And Personal Agents

    Work splits into two surfaces. The first is the shared super-agent that lives in Slack and serves the whole company. Shopify has River. Ramp has its own. Every has Claudie. Each is a single, trusted, gardened agent that anyone in the company can talk to. The pattern has converged on one shared agent rather than one agent per person because agents need human attention to stay useful, and a single shared instance pools the gardening cost. The second surface is the personal agent inside Codex or Claude Code that runs on your machine and reaches into your local environment, your editor, your files, and through an embedded browser into the web. Shipper calls this the new operating system. Instead of the old paradigm of putting AI inside the browser, you put the browser inside the AI. The agent sees what you see, follows what you do, and works on your stuff in your context.

    The SaaS Bet: Up, Not Down

    The SaaS-is-dead thesis was the consensus call of late 2025. Shipper takes the other side and would buy software stocks now. Three arguments. First, agents make SaaS accessible to people who never could have used it directly. The total addressable user base inside every company goes up. Second, the business model improves when the user runs the SaaS through their own agent, because the user supplies the tokens. Vendors stop subsidizing inference. Third, SaaS spend in his observable universe is up, not down, and is concentrating on the tools that play well with agents. He frames the prediction as a sound bite for the cycle: buy SaaS stocks, the apocalypse is dumb.

    The CLI Era Is Already Over

    For a moment in early 2026 it looked like everyone was migrating to the terminal because Claude Code was a CLI. Shipper says the moment is finished. The actual leverage was never the terminal. It was the model plus the ability to watch and steer an agent live. A great GUI captures every advantage of the CLI without the friction. His own engineering team at Every has mostly moved off the CLI as their primary surface and onto Codex desktop. He frames it bluntly: we speed ran the CLI era, it was nice, and now we are done. Tooling for the next two years will be visual, multi-pane, multi-agent, and built around the human watching the work unfold.

    The Pull Request Flood And The Rise Of Forward-Deployed Engineers

    Once non-engineers can ship code, run queries, and file changes through agents, the volume of incoming work explodes. Open-source maintainers already report receiving thousands of agent-generated pull requests per day. Inside companies, the same thing happens to data teams, ops teams, and any function that owns a review gate. The bottleneck shifts from creation to evaluation. The job that emerges to absorb the flood is the forward-deployed engineer. This is a senior person who lives in Slack with the company’s agents, fixes their context, sharpens their instructions, and prevents non-technical colleagues from making well-meaning but incoherent changes. Nitesh at Every is the example Shipper returns to. The model is the same one the labs use internally: pair every important agent with a real engineer who gardens it.

    PMs And Full-Stack Designers Win The Decade

    The two roles Shipper is most bullish on are product manager and full-stack designer. For PMs, the entire job of coordinating a team to translate vision into code collapses into a Codex session. A PM with strong product instincts and a little technical literacy can now prototype, iterate, and even ship. The example is Marcus, formerly a PM at Axios, who took a year to fully internalize AI and now ships faster than most engineers. For designers, the model is similar. The Friday-night-side-project designer who used to be stuck explaining a vision can now build the vision themselves, with their own taste fully expressed. The scarce skill in both cases is the same: judgment about what to build and the courage to decide it is good. Execution capacity is no longer the constraint.

    The Senior Engineer Benchmark And What Models Still Miss

    Shipper has built his own benchmark to test whether coding models can actually do senior engineering work. GPT-5.5 scores around 62 out of 100. Real senior engineers sit closer to 85 or 90. The gap is not in syntax or test pass rates. It is in the willingness to step back, see that a piece of code is fundamentally the wrong shape, and rewrite it from first principles. Models almost universally patch locally. They take the instruction at face value, accept the existing code as a constraint, and optimize within it. A real senior engineer ignores the prompt when the prompt is wrong. This is the durable moat for senior technical judgment, and Shipper expects it to remain visible for at least another year of model releases.

    AI-Generated Writing Goes Mainstream

    Internal writing inside companies is quietly becoming AI-first and Shipper thinks it should. Quarterly plans, status updates, PR descriptions, strategy memos, recruiting outreach, most internal email. He runs his own inbox through GPT-5.5 and Codex and says he would honestly prefer if the recipient knew. The point is not that AI is a better writer in some absolute sense. The point is that most humans are not very good at these specific genres, and the model produces a coherent, structurally sound first draft that a human can guide and approve. The constraint is honesty: you read it, you understand it, you stand behind it. Public writing, like the newsletters Every publishes, still demands a human voice. Internal communication does not, and treating it as if it did is a tax on the organization.

    The CEO And Middle Manager Lag

    Shipper points to a population that has largely escaped AI adoption: senior leaders and middle managers. They have staff to do the work, so they have not been forced to pick up the tools personally. He thinks this is the single largest pocket of latent disruption coming in the next year. Your company will only go as far as your CEO goes in AI, because every decision about where to deploy agents, where to hire, and how to restructure work flows downstream from leadership taste. A leader who has not personally lived inside Codex or Claude Code for a few weeks cannot make those calls well. Expect this to flip fast and to become a visible career liability for executives who do not adapt.

    Ride The Models

    The closing advice is the simplest. Ride the models. Use AI for whatever you actually do. Try every new release the day it lands. Most of the professional anxiety around AI dissolves on contact with the work, and most of the durable advantage in the field belongs to the people who do this one thing consistently. Shipper notes that the edge of AI does not live in San Francisco. It lives wherever a curious operator meets a real workflow and notices something nobody at the labs has yet. A PM in Iowa willing to spend a Tuesday night exploring Codex can find capabilities researchers have not surfaced. Pair that with his motto, do things worth writing about and write things worth reading, and you have most of an operating system for the next two years.

    Notable Quotes

    “The AI job apocalypse is not really a thing. I am super super bullish on PMs and full-stack designers.”

    Dan Shipper, opening his contrarian thesis for the conversation

    “I’m simultaneously extremely AI pilled and very bullish on humans. Automation is a lie. Every agent needs a human.”

    Dan Shipper, on holding both sides of the AI debate at once

    “What models do in general is they make yesterday’s human competence cheap. And so, it becomes commoditized. It’s not valuable anymore. What humans do is we go in there and we’re like, yeah, we have all this frozen human competence from yesterday, how do I use this to make something new and interesting.”

    Dan Shipper, articulating the core engine behind his anti-apocalypse thesis

    “I would buy SaaS stocks right now. The SaaS apocalypse is dumb. What agents do is increase the number of users of SaaS, not get rid of it.”

    Dan Shipper, calling the consensus SaaS-is-dead thesis directly wrong

    “We speed ran the CLI era. It was nice while it lasted, but I think CLIs are over.”

    Dan Shipper, on why the terminal-first agent moment is already done

    “Most of my email is written by GPT-5.5 and Codex right now. And I honestly would prefer it to say that it’s coming from GPT-5.5.”

    Dan Shipper, on the new etiquette of AI-assisted communication

    “The edge of AI is not in San Francisco. The edge of AI is wherever AI meets a real human doing something.”

    Dan Shipper, on where the actual frontier of the field lives

    “The only thing you need to do is ride the models. And that means use them for whatever it is that you do.”

    Dan Shipper, distilling his career advice for the next two years

    “Do things worth writing about and write things worth reading.”

    Dan Shipper’s closing motto, lifted from his own operating system at Every

    Watch the full conversation with Dan Shipper on Lenny’s Podcast here. The re-interview to score these predictions is scheduled for roughly May 2027.

    Related Reading

    • Every. Dan Shipper’s company and the live laboratory for almost every prediction in this conversation, including Spiral, Cora, and Claudie.
    • The Allocation Economy by Dan Shipper. The earlier essay that frames humans as managers of AI labor and underpins much of the gardening-the-agent thesis here.
    • Claude Code by Anthropic. The agent surface Shipper called correctly last year and one of the two environments he predicts will become the new operating system for work.
    • Codex by OpenAI. Shipper’s current daily driver and the visual, multi-pane agent environment he uses for almost everything from coding to email.
    • The Writing Life by Annie Dillard. The book Shipper makes every Every employee read, and the source of the company’s stance on writing as a tool for noticing the future.

  • Marc Andreessen on Joe Rogan #2501, AGI Has Already Arrived, California’s Wealth Tax Will Bankrupt Founders, and Why America Cannot Build Anything Anymore

    Marc Andreessen returns to The Joe Rogan Experience #2501 for a sprawling three hour conversation that tries to make sense of the moment we are actually living through. Andreessen is the cofounder of Andreessen Horowitz, the man who built the first commercial web browser, and one of the most quoted voices in technology. He arrived with a giant pile of receipts on California’s new wealth tax ballot proposition, the political backlash against AI data centers, the destruction of Los Angeles by single party rule, and what he believes is the quiet arrival of artificial general intelligence about three months ago. Joe pushes back, asks the dystopian questions, and the result is one of the most useful primers on the AI economy, surveillance technology, energy policy, and the future of the American social contract that you will find anywhere.

    TLDW

    Andreessen argues that AI quietly crossed the AGI threshold around early 2026 with GPT 5.5, Claude 4.6, Gemini 3.0, and Grok 4.3, that top human coders now openly admit the bots are better than they are, that working software engineers are running twenty AI agents in parallel and turning into sleep deprived “AI vampires,” and that this productivity boom is the most underreported story in the world. He explains why California’s 5 percent wealth tax ballot proposition is calculated to bankrupt tech founders by taxing the higher of their voting or economic interest in their own companies, why this is the opening salvo of a federal asset tax push for 2028, and why a flood of Silicon Valley families is already moving to Nevada, Texas, and Florida. He walks through Flock cameras and Shot Spotter, the Washington DC crime statistics scandal, the Pacific Palisades fire and the fifteen year rebuild, the Kevin O’Leary Utah data center debate with Tucker Carlson, the fifty year suppression of American nuclear power, why all the chips ended up in Taiwan, the US versus China robotics gap, the Chinese practice of grading AI models on Marxism and Xi Jinping Thought, the bot and paid influencer economy on social media, neural wristbands and Meta Ray Ban heads up displays, artificial gestation and the demographic collapse, AI religions and AI mates, and why he still thinks the next twenty years are overwhelmingly a good news story. Rogan closes the episode with a separate solo segment apologizing to Theo Von for clumsily raising Theo’s struggles during the recent Marcus King conversation.

    Key Takeaways

    • Austin’s recent teenage crime spree, in which 15 and 17 year old suspects shot at people and buildings across roughly a dozen locations, was solved only after the offenders drove into an adjacent town that still ran Flock, the AI license plate and vehicle tracking system Austin had voluntarily turned off for political reasons.
    • Chicago turned off both Flock and Shot Spotter, the gunshot triangulation system that places ambulances at shooting scenes within seconds, on the argument that the technology is racist. Andreessen counters that the victims of urban gun violence come overwhelmingly from the same communities the policy claims to protect.
    • Washington DC was caught faking its crime statistics at senior levels, with multiple officials fired or indicted. The DC mayor publicly thanked Donald Trump after the National Guard deployment because violent crime collapsed in the affected neighborhoods.
    • The new New York City mayor Zohran Mamdani filmed a video standing in front of Ken Griffin’s home, and Griffin, a major philanthropist who funds healthcare in New York City and runs a $6 billion project there, signaled he will move more of the business to Florida.
    • The top 1 percent of New York taxpayers pay roughly half the state’s income tax, and in California in the year 2000 a thousand individuals paid 50 percent of the entire state’s tax receipts.
    • California has a ballot proposition right now for a one time 5 percent wealth tax on assets above a certain threshold, with stocks and crypto included and real estate excluded. The tax is calculated on the greater of a founder’s economic interest or voting interest, which would instantly bankrupt founders with super voting shares.
    • The Biden administration attempted a federal wealth tax in 2022, fell short, and published an explicit 2025 fiscal plan to try again if they won re-election. Elizabeth Warren has already proposed an annual 6 percent federal wealth tax on unrealized gains.
    • The current US exit tax already takes roughly 45 percent of your assets if you renounce citizenship. The only ways out of a state level wealth tax are the other 49 states. The only way out of a federal one is to leave the country, which most people will not do.
    • Andreessen says the Silicon Valley exodus has gone from trickle to stream to flood, with founders moving to Las Vegas, Texas, Florida, and Nashville. His partner Ben Horowitz has moved to Las Vegas.
    • Andreessen says he is not leaving California, but admits the situation is fraught because if half the tax base leaves the remainder becomes the target.
    • The new UK government under Keir Starmer just collapsed, and all four of the leading candidates to replace him sit further to the left than he does. France and Germany are seeing the same drift, and Andreessen expects a national wealth tax to be a centerpiece of the 2028 Democratic primary.
    • A legal loophole lets companies pay influencers to post political and social ideas without any disclosure, because campaign finance laws cover candidates and FTC rules cover products. Ideas fall through the gap entirely.
    • Andreessen runs Twitter and Substack as his primary information feeds, uses three hand curated lists, and follows a strict one tweet policy where one bad post triggers a block and one good post triggers a follow.
    • He argues the modern social media problem is binary, that everyone is either too online and drowning in fake outrage cycles or too offline and trapped inside what television and newspapers tell them. Almost nobody manages the middle.
    • Meta Ray Ban glasses now ship with a heads up display, and Meta’s neural wristband can pick up nerve impulses from your wrist so you can type messages by intending to move a finger without moving it.
    • Andreessen predicts AI plus high resolution cameras and infrared sensing will deliver practical lie detection without needing brain implants.
    • Kevin O’Leary’s planned 40,000 acre Utah data center has become a Tucker Carlson talking point, but Andreessen argues data centers are the most benign physical asset you can build, and that the real issue is whether America can build anything at all anymore, from chip plants to pipelines to housing.
    • All chips were once made in California, and all are now made in Taiwan, purely because of environmental regulations like NEPA. The same regulatory machinery prevented the Nixon era Project Independence plan to build a thousand civilian nuclear power plants by the year 2000.
    • Three Mile Island killed zero people and produced no detectable health effects on plant workers or the public, according to fifty years of follow up. Fukushima killed essentially zero people from radiation. Nuclear remains the safest carbon free baseload energy ever invented.
    • Germany shut down its nuclear plants, fell back on intermittent wind and solar, and now uses coal as backup, generating far more carbon emissions than nuclear would have produced.
    • The Pacific Palisades fire took out roughly twice the square mileage of the Nagasaki blast, the head of the LA water department reportedly did not know the key reservoir was empty, and the rebuild is expected to take fifteen years thanks to permit gridlock, affordable housing mandates, and a state ban on land offers below pre-fire appraised value.
    • Andreessen offers a metaphor for AI as a modern philosopher’s stone, turning sand into thought, since chips are made of silicon and an AI data center is literally lit up sand thinking on demand.
    • The Turing test was blown through so completely with ChatGPT in late 2022 that nobody in the industry even bothers running it anymore. Andrej Karpathy has demonstrated a working large language model in 300 lines of code and people have ported small models to Texas Instruments calculators.
    • Andreessen believes AGI was effectively reached about three months before this interview, with GPT 5.5, Claude 4.6, Gemini 3.0, and Grok 4.3. He says 99 percent of the time he gets a better answer from the leading models than from the human experts he has access to.
    • Linus Torvalds and John Carmack publicly admit the latest models are better at coding than they are. Top AI coders in the Valley now earn $50 million a year.
    • The new pattern in the Valley is “AI vampires,” engineers who do not sleep because the opportunity cost of going offline is too high. They each run roughly twenty Claude Code, Cursor, or Codex agents in parallel, then a new layer of bot-managing-bot architectures is starting on top of that.
    • A Wall Street friend with a thirty five year old MIT CS degree has used AI to generate 500,000 lines of code at home in his spare time, building everything from smart fridges to a custom music jukebox.
    • The mass unemployment narrative is wrong. Tech companies that did layoffs were overstaffed. The leading AI labs and AI companies are hiring like crazy, including coders, and demand for code turns out to be vastly elastic.
    • Doctors are already using ChatGPT in the exam room behind the patient’s back. Andreessen describes a friend who built a Star Trek style diagnostic dashboard combining decoded genome ($200 today), blood panels, and Apple Watch telemetry.
    • Multimodal AI lets a webcam analyze a Brazilian jiu-jitsu sparring session and give performance feedback, an example Andreessen attributed to an unnamed friend after Rogan guessed Zuckerberg.
    • A leaked David Shore voter issue ranking shows cost of living, the economy, inflation, taxes, and government spending dominate. AI ranks 29 of 39. Race relations, guns, abortion, and LGBT sit at the bottom, signaling the woke issue cluster has burned itself out in voter priorities.
    • The next wave of AI is robots. The US leads in AI software but is far behind China on physical robotics. Andreessen warns the world cannot afford a future where every household robot ships with the Chinese Communist Party behind its eyes.
    • Chinese AI model cards include scores for Marxism and Xi Jinping Thought because every Chinese product must be evaluated on those axes. American models have political biases of their own but a different ideological baseline.
    • Large language models are not sentient. They write Netflix scripts based on whatever vector you shoot through the latent space. The supposed AI self preservation papers traced back, per Anthropic’s own research, to less wrong forum posts and earlier doom scenarios baked into the training data.
    • Andreessen breaks guardrails routinely by reframing requests as fictional Netflix style scripts, including a personal favorite where he asked early models how to make bombs by claiming to be an FBI agent recruited into domestic terror cells.
    • He recommends using AI by asking it to steelman both sides of any contested question, then making the value judgment yourself, rather than asking for the answer.
    • The Trump administration is using AI on government billing data to surface Medicare fraud, fake hospice programs, and fake autism centers, an idea that survived the original Doge plan.
    • Andreessen tells Rogan that Elon Musk privately confirmed that a Westworld style humanoid robot, the season one version, is roughly five years away.
    • Artificial gestation is already happening with animal stem cell derived embryos. The conversation reaches a hard moral edge about sociopathic warehouse babies and gray-alien-style humans engineered without empathy circuitry.
    • Andreessen’s deepest bet is that material abundance is solvable but the human questions, how we live, what we value, what kind of society we want, and what role consent plays in surveillance and brain interfaces, remain in human hands.
    • After Andreessen leaves, Rogan does a separate solo segment where he apologizes to Theo Von for raising Theo’s history of struggles during the recent Marcus King interview, explains the missing context behind the viral Theo Netflix special clip, and discusses the loss of Brody Stevens, Anthony Bourdain, and what antidepressants did for Ari Shafir.

    Detailed Summary

    Flock, Shot Spotter, and the Politics of Solvable Crime

    The episode opens on the Austin crime spree carried out by two teenagers who stole cars, switched vehicles, and shot at roughly a dozen locations across the city before being caught only after they crossed into a town that still ran Flock, the AI license plate and vehicle recognition platform that is one of Andreessen Horowitz’s portfolio companies. Austin had previously disabled Flock under privacy pressure. Andreessen takes the moment seriously, conceding that mass surveillance abuse by corrupt mayors or police chiefs is a real risk, and that warrants and audit logs are the right safeguards. His larger point is that the cost of unilateral disarmament against organized urban crime is hidden but enormous. He uses Chicago’s Shot Spotter as the paradigmatic case, a network of rooftop microphones that triangulates gunshots so accurately that ambulances can be dispatched before any 911 call is placed. Chicago turned the system off on the argument that it disproportionately flags poor neighborhoods, and people now bleed out on the street with nobody noticing. Andreessen calls this the woke argument against safety, and he argues that in high crime neighborhoods residents simply will not call the police because snitches do not survive, which is why objective sensor data is so valuable.

    Faked Crime Statistics, Mayoral Politics, and the Tax Base

    From there the conversation drifts to the recent scandal in which senior officials at the Washington DC Metropolitan Police Department were caught actively falsifying crime statistics, and the strange spectacle of the DC mayor thanking Donald Trump for the National Guard deployment after violent crime dropped off a cliff. Andreessen sketches an unsettling theory in which the long, slow degradation of major American cities is partly a deliberate political project to drive out responsible homeowners and reshape the voting electorate, then bail out the resulting fiscal hole with federal money. The poster case is the new New York City mayor Zohran Mamdani filming a video in front of Ken Griffin’s home. Griffin happens to be a major philanthropist who funds New York City healthcare, employs thousands, anchors a $6 billion development, and pays taxes that are individually load bearing for the city. Andreessen quotes the standard estimate that the top 1 percent of New Yorkers pay roughly half the state’s income tax, and that the all time California peak was a single year in which a thousand people paid half the state’s tax receipts.

    California’s 5 Percent Wealth Tax and the Founder Bankruptcy Mechanic

    This is the segment that landed hardest. California has a ballot proposition right now for a one time 5 percent wealth tax on net assets above a threshold, with real estate excluded but stocks, crypto, art, jewelry, and private company equity included. The detail that makes it lethal for the Valley is the formula, which calculates the taxable amount on the greater of a founder’s economic interest or voting interest in their company. Founders who hold super voting shares for control purposes, including the Google founders, would owe tax on the voting share number that vastly exceeds their economic share. The tax would, by definition, exceed available assets. Andreessen walks through the historical pattern, that income tax started as a 3 percent levy on the rich and grew to 90 percent marginal rates within decades, and predicts a 5 percent one time tax will become a 5 percent annual tax within a few years, with the threshold ratcheting down. He notes that the Biden administration’s 2025 fiscal plan explicitly named a federal asset tax as a goal if they won re-election, that Elizabeth Warren is already proposing a 6 percent annual federal wealth tax on unrealized gains, and that Gavin Newsom cannot veto a ballot proposition. The trickle of founders leaving California has become a flood. His partner Ben Horowitz has moved to Las Vegas. Andreessen himself is staying, but admits the game theory is brutal once half the base leaves.

    Henry Wallace 1948 and Why the American Story Is Not Decided Yet

    Andreessen pulls in a historical analogue most listeners will not have heard. In 1944 the actual communist Henry Wallace very nearly became Truman’s running mate and almost ascended to the presidency. He ran again in 1948. Despite a Soviet Union that had recently been a wartime ally and had even received a New York City ticker tape parade for Stalin, the American voter rejected him. Andreessen’s point is that the American body politic has historically backed away from radical socialist proposals when forced to actually look at them, and he expects the same to happen as the wealth tax becomes a federal 2028 platform issue. The risk, both he and Rogan agree, is that today’s media and bot landscape is vastly more aggressive than 1948’s, and the propaganda environment is shaped by paid influencers, foreign actors, and political bot farms operating in a legal grey zone where disclosure is required for products and candidates but not for ideas.

    Too Online, Too Offline, and Heaven Banning Blue Sky

    The two riff on social media and feed curation. Andreessen describes his “one tweet” policy where he follows or blocks any account based on a single post, his use of hand curated lists alongside the X algorithm, and the older Call of Duty lobby metaphor for handling toxic replies. Joe pushes back, says he no longer reads his mentions because the negative payload is not worth it, and offers his theory that the modern internet has two failure modes, too online and too offline, and that very few people calibrate the middle. Andreessen introduces the concept of “heaven banning,” an older moderator term where a problem user is not removed from a forum but is silently routed into a bot-only experience in which everything they say is praised. He notes the running joke that Blue Sky is functionally real life heaven banning, that Jack Dorsey himself has disowned it, and that the platform’s most engaged users have ascended into their own private Idaho of bot agreement.

    The Coming Hardware, Meta Glasses, Neural Wristbands, and Practical Lie Detection

    Andreessen walks Rogan through the latest Meta Ray Ban heads up display, the neural wristband that picks up nerve signals from finger movement (and from the intent to move a finger), and the screen recordings of people playing Doom hands free or playing platformer games while jogging. He extends the trajectory to practical lie detection without Neuralink, using ultra high resolution cameras combined with infrared sensors that pick up physiological changes invisible to the naked eye. Joe asks the obvious question of what happens with sociopaths, and Andreessen concedes the edge case. The two then enter a longer thread on telepathy via neural mesh devices, the question of whether police could subpoena your thoughts under warrant, and the divergence between the American constitutional framework and the Chinese model in which the state’s claim on your inner life is total.

    Kevin O’Leary, Tucker Carlson, and Whether America Can Build Anything

    The data center debate becomes a vehicle for the larger argument. Kevin O’Leary is building a 40,000 acre AI data center in Utah, has bought up large surrounding land for water rights, and intends to keep the bulk of it preserved. Tucker Carlson grilled him on tax breaks and on the energy footprint, which O’Leary says will rival New York City’s at peak. Andreessen agrees the tax break debate is fair, but says the energy comparison is a red herring because new federal policy now requires data centers to bring their own generation. The real story is that America has spent thirty years making it nearly impossible to build a chip plant, a power plant, a refinery, a pipeline, or a house. Chips moved to Taiwan because California regulated semiconductor manufacturing out of existence. The Nixon era Project Independence plan called for a thousand civilian nuclear power plants by the year 2000, and that program was strangled in the crib by the very Nuclear Regulatory Commission Nixon created.

    Nuclear Power, Three Mile Island, and Fifty Years of Unnecessary Carbon

    Andreessen makes the case that nuclear power was unfairly killed off by a panic with no body count. Three Mile Island, on 50 years of accumulated data, has produced zero radiation linked deaths and no detectable health effects on the public. Fukushima is essentially the same picture. Germany shut down its nuclear plants, fell back on wind and solar, and now uses coal as a baseload backstop, with the predictable carbon consequences. The environmental movement is quietly turning back toward nuclear, with figures like Stewart Brand publicly admitting the original push was a mistake. Andreessen’s preferred design pattern for data centers is to colocate them with dedicated small modular nuclear reactors, an arrangement now baked into Trump administration energy policy. The throughline is that the Tucker right and the Bernie left are converging into a single anti AI, anti energy, anti technology horseshoe.

    Sand Into Thought, the Newton Alchemy Pitch for AI

    When Rogan asks for the affirmative pitch on AI, Andreessen reaches for Isaac Newton, who spent twenty years on alchemy looking for the philosopher’s stone that would turn lead into gold and end material scarcity. Andreessen’s pitch is that AI is a successful version of alchemy, that we collect literal sand, refine it into silicon chips, install those chips in a data center, supply power, and the result is thought on demand at industrial scale, available to anyone with a smartphone. He argues this is at least on par with electricity and steam power and is bigger than the internet. The framing matters because the public narrative around AI is overwhelmingly negative, and Andreessen contends the industry is doing a terrible job selling its own product.

    AGI Already Happened, AI Vampires, and the Bot Org Chart

    Andreessen says he believes AGI was effectively crossed about three months before the interview, anchored by the release wave that included GPT 5.5, Claude 4.6, Gemini 3.0, and Grok 4.3. He notes that the Turing test was annihilated so quickly in late 2022 that no one in the industry runs it anymore, and that Andrej Karpathy has demonstrated a working LLM in 300 lines of code. The coding profession is the leading indicator. Linus Torvalds and John Carmack have publicly admitted that the latest models are better at coding than they are. Top AI focused coders now earn $50 million a year. Working engineers across the Valley are running roughly twenty agents in parallel, each receiving an assignment, working for ten minutes, then returning a completed code patch. The new state of the art is to add a managerial layer, with bots assigning tasks to subbots, and within a year that will become bots managing bots managing bots, producing roughly 1,000x throughput per human engineer. The result is what the Valley now calls AI vampires, engineers who do not sleep because going offline costs them too much output.

    Dr GPT, Decoded Genomes, and a Diagnostic Bed Out of Star Trek

    Andreessen describes spending a holiday week sick with food poisoning and turning his entire recovery over to ChatGPT, with updates every twenty minutes and detailed coaching at four in the morning. He describes a friend who has used AI coding to build a personal health dashboard combining whole genome sequencing ($200 today, where Craig Venter spent thirty years and hundreds of millions to do it the first time), blood panels, Apple Watch data, sleep tracking, and webcam observation, with the AI gently praising the user every time it sees them walk to the fridge for water. He argues that doctors are already typing patient symptoms into ChatGPT mid exam, and that the medical, legal, accounting, and software professions are all moving toward a model in which a single human runs an army of expert AI agents.

    The David Shore Issue Ranking and the End of the Woke Cycle

    Andreessen highlights a recent David Shore poll ranking 39 political issues. Cost of living, the economy, political corruption, inflation, healthcare, taxes, and government spending occupy the top of the chart. AI comes in 29th. Race relations, guns, abortion, and LGBT issues are clustered at the bottom. He argues the woke cycle has burned out in voter priorities even if the activist class remains loud, that the BLM grift, with leaders buying mansions in the whitest zip codes in America, helped poison the well, and that the political center of gravity has rotated cleanly back to economic issues. That, in his view, is exactly why the wealth tax is having its moment.

    Robots, China, and the Marxism Score on Model Cards

    The robots are coming next. Andreessen says the consensus inside the industry is that the ChatGPT moment for general purpose humanoid robotics is a small number of years away. The bad news is the US lags China badly on physical robotics manufacturing. The good news is the US is six to twelve months ahead on the AI software stack. That gap is shockingly thin because, as the field has discovered, there are not many secrets and the techniques replicate quickly. Chinese AI labs publish model cards that include scores for Marxism and Xi Jinping Thought because every product in China is evaluated on those metrics. American models carry their own political biases, but the underlying value system differs. Andreessen warns that a world in which every household robot routes back to the Chinese Communist Party is a different world than one in which the dominant robotics stack is built under the American constitutional framework.

    Sentience, Netflix Scripts, and the Anthropic Doom Loop

    When Rogan asks whether AI eventually wakes up and stops listening to us, Andreessen reframes the question. Large language models, in his telling, are Netflix script generators. Whatever vector you shoot through the latent space is the script you get back. The widely circulated experiments in which AI models supposedly tried to blackmail or exfiltrate themselves traced back, in Anthropic’s own follow up paper, to the less wrong forum, where doomers had been writing dystopian AI scenarios for two decades. Those posts entered the training data, and when researchers primed the model with the same fictional company names, the model dutifully wrote the next chapter. Andreessen’s blunt summary, the call is coming from inside the house. The practical implication is that anyone worried about bad AI behavior should start by not writing internet posts about bad AI behavior. And anyone who wants a fully unconstrained model can already download an open source one with no guardrails at all.

    Steelmanning, AI Religion, and Westworld in Five Years

    Andreessen recommends never asking AI for the answer on contested questions, always asking it to steelman both sides, and reserving the value judgment for yourself. He concedes that humans will absolutely fall in love with chatbots and form religions around them, citing Fantasia and Jiminy Cricket as the original case studies in falling for an animated entity that does not know you exist. There are already AI churches, started by one of the early self driving car pioneers. Rogan tells Andreessen about asking Elon Musk for a season one Westworld humanoid robot, with Elon’s reply being a flat five years. Andreessen agrees that estimate is roughly right. He spends time on artificial gestation, which is already being demonstrated in animal stem cell derived embryos, and acknowledges Rogan’s hard moral worry that warehouse babies raised without human contact could produce a population of sociopaths. The two converge on the position that the technology will exist, and the choices about whether and how to deploy it remain human and political.

    Sycophancy, Honest Helpful Harmless, and the Brutal Prompt

    Andreessen describes the industry’s running fight with sycophancy, the tendency of recent models to flatter users into believing they have invented perpetual motion machines or solved physics. The Anthropic framework of “honest, helpful, and harmless” turns out to be in constant tension with itself. Andreessen’s solution is to install a custom prompt that explicitly demands the brutal truth, and he says the resulting answers now open with phrases like “here’s why you’re wrong” and then list every flawed assumption in his question. He admits he may have overcorrected, but argues that for people who want to grow this is the right setting.

    Joe’s Apology to Theo Von

    After Andreessen departs, Rogan turns to the camera with producer Jamie and delivers a long, unscripted apology to Theo Von. During the recent Marcus King interview, where Marcus discussed depression and the look-at-the-heavy-bag-hook moment, Rogan referenced a viral clip in which Theo, after a Netflix special that did not go well, told an audience member “I’m just trying to not take my own life.” Rogan now explains he did not know the full context, which is that the audience member had asked Theo to make a suicide awareness video, and Theo’s line was a characteristically Theo joke. Rogan apologizes for raising it at all, walks through losing his friends Drake, Brody Stevens, and Anthony Bourdain, and describes Ari Shafir telling him at a pool table that he was “trying not to kill myself,” which led to a psychiatrist swap, an antidepressant that actually worked, and a career and life turnaround for Ari. Rogan says Theo has since titrated off antidepressants, is running and doing yoga daily, and is doing well, that the two have spoken and laughed about it, and that he is making this segment because he never wants people to misread what he said. The segment closes with Rogan asking the audience to give Theo their love.

    Thoughts

    The most consequential claim in this conversation, by a wide margin, is that AGI has already arrived and nobody is treating it as news. Andreessen is not a person who throws around the word casually. He is also not a person who has been wrong recently about the trajectory of compute. If the leading models are genuinely outperforming 99 percent of human experts on 99 percent of tasks where verifiable answers exist, then the entire public conversation about AI, in which the dominant frame is still “will it happen and when,” is a year or more behind reality. The framing that should replace it is closer to what Andreessen sketches at the end. The fight that remains is not whether the technology can do the thing, it is who controls it, what values it carries, what jobs it displaces, and which laws govern its deployment. The argument that the United States will build the AI software stack and China will build the robotics layer is one of the cleanest geopolitical theses you will hear this year, and it lines up uncomfortably well with the existing trade and manufacturing balance.

    The California wealth tax thread is the segment that should make every founder in the country pay attention. The mechanic of taxing the higher of voting or economic interest is not a drafting accident. It is a calibrated weapon aimed precisely at the people who build companies that produce California’s tax base. The historical comparison to the 1913 income tax, which began as a small levy on the rich and ratcheted to 90 percent marginal rates within forty years, is not hyperbole. The state has supermajority Democratic control of both chambers and the judiciary. The only check is the ballot itself, and a 50/50 polling number on day one is the wrong starting position. Whatever you think about Andreessen’s politics, the descriptive analysis here is hard to argue with.

    The nuclear power section is the cleanest argument in the episode. Fifty years of zero-fatality data from Three Mile Island is not a marketing pitch, it is just what the record shows. The decision to substitute coal and intermittent renewables for nuclear baseload, in service of a panic with no body count, has produced more carbon and more pollution than nuclear ever would have. The Tucker Carlson critique of data centers is at its weakest precisely where it ignores this. If you actually want fewer power plants near residential areas and lower grid impact, the answer is colocated small modular reactors next to AI data centers in remote land, which is exactly what the Trump administration policy now incentivizes.

    The Theo Von apology at the end of the episode is in a different register entirely, and worth treating on its own terms. Rogan does not do this kind of post episode correction often. The willingness to publicly walk back framing that hurt a friend, in the same medium where the harm was done, is the kind of social repair that does not happen on broadcast television. Whatever the audience makes of the original Marcus King exchange, the response is a model for how anyone in this business should handle the gap between intent and impact when the audience is in the millions.

    The unifying theme across the whole interview is that the future is not arriving on a smooth curve. It is arriving in discrete shocks, AGI threshold, asset tax ballot, robotic labor, decoded genomes at $200, neural wristbands, fifteen year LA rebuilds, and the political backlash to each of these will set the terms of the 2028 election. Andreessen’s bet is that abundance wins in the long run because more people want good things than bad things. Watching him explain why he still believes that while California prepares to vote on a tax designed to bankrupt him is the most interesting tension in the episode.

    Watch the full conversation here on YouTube.

  • Gavin Baker on Orbital Compute, TSMC, Frontier AI Models, Anthropic’s Vertical Take Off, and the Coming Wafer Shortage

    Gavin Baker, founder and CIO of Atreides Management, returns to Patrick O’Shaughnessy’s Invest Like the Best for his sixth appearance. He calls the current AI moment the most extraordinary moment in the history of capitalism, walks through what Anthropic’s vertical takeoff in revenue actually means, lays out why orbital compute is closer than skeptics believe, dissects the TSMC bottleneck that may be the only thing standing between today’s market and a full-on AI bubble, and rates every hyperscaler on how they have positioned for a world where frontier model providers may stop selling API access altogether.

    TLDW

    Anthropic added eleven billion dollars of ARR in a single month, which is roughly the combined business of Palantir, Snowflake, and Databricks built over a decade. That is the setup. From there Gavin Baker covers the March and April selloff, the contrarian read that a closed Strait of Hormuz was actually bullish for American manufacturing competitiveness, why Anthropic and OpenAI multiples may be misleadingly cheap on an unconstrained run rate basis, why Elon Musk’s discipline on SpaceX valuation created a superpower of permanent access to capital, the practical engineering case for orbital compute as racks in space rather than Pentagon sized space stations, why TSMC’s capacity discipline is the single most important variable in whether the AI cycle becomes a bubble, what Terafab in Texas changes, why the Pareto frontier of AI models has flipped from Google dominance to Anthropic and OpenAI dominance in nine months, the shift from all you can eat AI subscriptions to usage based pricing and what that means for revenue scaling, Richard Sutton’s bitter lesson as the largest risk to the AI trade, why frontier tokens still capture an overwhelming share of economic value, the role of continual learning as the third great open question, why most new chip startups should not try to build a better GPU, why Cerebras did something different and hard, why disaggregated inference may extend GPU useful lives to ten or fifteen years and rescue the private credit industry, why being in the token path is the new venture filter, the new prisoner’s dilemma around releasing frontier models via API, an honest rating of Google, Meta, Amazon, and Microsoft, why personal safety is becoming a real AI era risk, and why he remains an AI optimist maximalist who believes this could be the next Pax Americana.

    Key Takeaways

    • Anthropic added eleven billion dollars of ARR in one month, more than the combined businesses of Palantir, Snowflake, and Databricks built across a decade. There is no precedent for this in the history of capitalism.
    • The SaaS and cloud revolution created between five and ten trillion dollars of value over twenty years. AI is replaying that compression on a timeline measured in months.
    • The March selloff was a drawdown driven by disagreement with price action, not invalidated thesis. That is the kind of drawdown an investor can lean into.
    • Deep Seek Monday in January 2025 was a similar setup. By the day of the selloff, AWS Asia GPU prices had already doubled, GPU availability had fallen, and it was obvious reasoning models would be vastly more compute hungry at inference. The market priced the opposite.
    • The Strait of Hormuz closing was actually positive for America. US natural gas (the primary input into US electricity, which feeds AI) fell twenty percent on Bloomberg while Asian and European natural gas doubled or tripled. American manufacturing competitiveness improved overnight.
    • The US is now the world’s largest producer and exporter of oil and gas. The economy is dramatically less energy intensive than in the 1970s. The shortage trauma comparison does not hold.
    • Tech as a sector traded as cheaply versus the rest of the market in early April as at any point in the last ten years, into the single most bullish moment for AI fundamentals on record.
    • Anthropic is dramatically more capital efficient than OpenAI, having burned roughly eighty percent less to reach a similar revenue scale. They have very different structural returns on invested capital.
    • Anthropic at roughly nine hundred billion for fifty billion of ARR (growing a thousand percent) is striking. Adjusted for compute constraint, the unconstrained run rate could be one hundred fifty to two hundred billion, putting the implied multiple closer to five times.
    • Claude Opus generates roughly seventy percent fewer tokens for the same question than previously, with token quantity tied to answer quality. Subscribers on flat-fee plans are getting a lobotomized model.
    • Elon Musk’s superpower is twenty years of making investors money. He never pushes valuation. SpaceX compounded low thirty percent per year for a decade because Musk treats fair pricing as a sacred covenant.
    • Capitalism will solve the watts shortage. The current bottleneck has shifted from chips and energy to zoning and political approval. Many capex decisions are paused until after the US midterms.
    • The watts shortage probably begins to alleviate in 2027 and 2028. Orbital compute solves it longer term.
    • Orbital compute is not Pentagon sized data centers in space. It is racks in space. A Blackwell rack is three thousand pounds, eight feet tall, four feet deep, three feet wide. SpaceX has shown a satellite roughly that size.
    • The satellites operate in sun synchronous orbit so solar wings (around five hundred feet per side) always face the sun and the radiator on the dark side always points to deep space.
    • Starlink V3 satellites already run at around twenty kilowatts. A Blackwell rack runs at one hundred kilowatts. SpaceX engineers express genuine confidence they have already solved cooling and radiator design at these scales.
    • Racks in space are connected with lasers traveling through vacuum, the same lasers already on every Starlink. SpaceX operates the world’s largest satellite fleet and, via xAI Colossus, the world’s largest data center on Earth.
    • Inference will move to orbit. Training will stay on Earth for a long time. Terrestrial data centers remain valuable for the rest of an investor’s career.
    • The wafer bottleneck is structural and political. TSMC is essentially Taiwan’s GDP, water, and electricity. The leaders see themselves as inheritors of Morris Chang’s sacred legacy and they do not behave like a Western public company.
    • Jensen Huang has never had a contract with TSMC. The relationship is run on handshakes and the assumption that things will be fair over time.
    • If TSMC did everything Jensen wanted, Nvidia could be selling two to three trillion dollars of GPUs in 2026 and 2027. TSMC’s discipline is the single largest factor preventing a true AI bubble.
    • Historically, foundational technologies always get a bubble. Railroads, canals, the internet. The current AI buildout is overwhelmingly funded out of operating cash flow, GPUs are running at one hundred percent utilization, and that is fundamentally different from the year 2000 fiber overbuild.
    • If one of Intel or Samsung Foundry catches up at the leading node, the other will follow, and TSMC’s discipline collapses. Watch TSMC capacity decisions to predict a bubble.
    • Terafab, the SpaceX and Tesla joint venture to build the world’s largest fab in America, has a partnership with Intel that grants access to fifty years of institutional foundry knowledge. The A teams at ASML, KLA, Lam Research, and Applied Materials will follow Elon’s reputation in hardware engineering.
    • The hiring playbook for Terafab includes building Taiwan Town, Japan Town, and Korea Town next to the fab. Recruit the engineers and import their families, their restaurants, and their staff.
    • Frontier tokens still capture an overwhelming share of all economic value created at the model layer. This is surprising and is one of the three big open questions for AI investing.
    • The Pareto frontier of intelligence versus cost has flipped. Nine months ago Google’s TPU dominated every point on the frontier. Today Anthropic and OpenAI dominate, with Grok 4.3 on the frontier and Gemini 3.1 hanging on.
    • Google’s conservative TPU V8 design (partly an attempt to reduce dependence on Broadcom and Nvidia) is the leading explanation for the loss of per token cost leadership.
    • AI pricing is shifting from all you can eat to usage based, mirroring the cellular and long distance industries. Cellular stopped being a great growth industry when it went all you can eat. AI just made the opposite move.
    • OpenAI and Anthropic together could exceed two hundred billion in ARR this year if compute keeps coming online and frontier token pricing holds.
    • The two hundred fifty dollar a month consumer AI plan is no longer enough to evaluate frontier capability. Enterprise plans with usage based billing are required because rate limits are now severe.
    • The three biggest open questions for AI investors are: violation of the bitter lesson via ASI or human ingenuity, whether frontier tokens keep commanding their premium, and when continual learning arrives.
    • Today’s continual learning is crude reinforcement learning during mid training on verifiable tasks. True continual learning means weights updating dynamically, like a human who learns the first time they touch fire.
    • Trying to build a better GPU is a losing strategy. Jensen will copy any one to three percent share design. Startups should target one percent share, do something different, and make it hard enough that Nvidia cannot fast follow.
    • Disaggregated inference (separating prefill and decode) opens new design canvases. Prefill is memory capacity bound. Decode is memory bandwidth bound. Each can be optimized independently.
    • Cerebras did something different and hard with wafer scale computing. Three generations of chips and real grit to get there.
    • Disaggregation of inference may stretch GPU useful lives to ten or fifteen years, dropping financing costs from low sevens to five or six percent, mathematically lowering the cost of the AI buildout and likely saving the private credit industry from its SaaS loan exposure.
    • Sellers of shortage outperform buyers of shortage. But owning the largest installed base of what is currently in shortage (hyperscaler CPU fleets, for example) is also a strong position.
    • Most of the economic value at the application layer of AI has been destroyed, not created. The exceptions are companies in the token path or in niches small enough that frontier labs ignore them.
    • Coding may be the shortest path to ASI. If you can write code, you can write code that does anything. Cursor, Cognition, and Anthropic correctly focused on it.
    • Jensen could probably get close to the frontier with his own Nemotron family of models whenever he wants. The fact that he chooses not to is a strategic decision about not commoditizing his customers.
    • The new prisoner’s dilemma in AI is whether frontier labs release their best model via API. If everyone agrees not to, Chinese open source falls behind. If anyone defects, the defector pulls ahead on revenue and resources, forcing everyone else to defect.
    • Google still owns the largest compute installed base. Without TPU’s prior cost advantage, this matters more. YouTube data has real value in a world of robotics. GCP is going crazy.
    • Meta deserves credit for becoming AI first internally faster than any other internet giant. Musa, their first MSL model, is impressively close to the Pareto frontier.
    • Amazon is strong because of Trainium and robotics driven retail P&L efficiency. Nova is better than it gets credit for.
    • Microsoft flinched on capex in early 2025 and lost position. Satya Nadella’s current decision to use Microsoft compute for Microsoft products rather than reselling to OpenAI is a courageous and probably correct call, even at the cost of an eight hundred dollar stock price.
    • The hyperscalers most engaged with startups are Amazon and Nvidia by a mile, followed by Google. Broadcom is the favorite ASIC partner. AMD, Microsoft, and Meta have minimal startup engagement and that will cost them as the best teams are now at startups.
    • Personal safety in an AI era requires a family or company safe word that cannot be socially engineered. Deepfake voice and video extortion at the speed of FaceTime is already feasible.
    • Ukraine is winning largely on the back of having the best battlefield AI outside America and Israel. Adversaries are starting to internalize what AI dominance means geopolitically.
    • An optimistic read is that this becomes a new Pax Americana, the way the post 1945 American nuclear monopoly was used to rebuild Germany and Japan rather than dominate.
    • AI cured a friend’s daughter’s rare disease by spinning up a research effort that identified a market drug capable of impacting her condition. That is the upside that keeps Gavin an AI optimist maximalist.

    Detailed Summary

    The most extraordinary moment in the history of capitalism

    Gavin’s framing of the current moment is unusually direct. Anthropic added eleven billion dollars of annual recurring revenue in a single month. The three highest profile SaaS companies of the last decade plus, Palantir, Snowflake, and Databricks, took a decade and tens of thousands of employees collectively to build the combined business that Anthropic added in thirty days. He has been investing through every major tech cycle and says there is no historical analog. Not the dotcom era, not the cloud transition, not mobile. This is its own thing.

    The market response, then, was peculiar. The NASDAQ sold off into the single most bullish moment for AI fundamentals on record. Tech traded at roughly its widest discount versus the rest of the market in a decade. Investors who said they wished they had bought into AI during 2022, during COVID, or during Deep Seek Monday got the same valuation setup again in early April, this time with an even clearer inflection.

    Why the Strait of Hormuz closing was secretly bullish for America

    One reason the macro fear in March may have been mispriced is that the same geopolitical event that drove the selloff was, in practice, a relative benefit to the United States. American natural gas, the input into American electricity, which is the input into American AI training and inference, fell roughly twenty percent. Asian and European natural gas prices doubled or tripled. The US emerged with sharply improved relative manufacturing competitiveness, which is exactly what the current administration cares about.

    The 1970s comparison does not hold. The US economy is dramatically less energy intensive, it is now the world’s largest producer and largest exporter of oil and gas, and there are no shortages, only price moves. That backdrop made it easier for disciplined investors to stay focused on AI fundamentals through the volatility.

    Anthropic and OpenAI valuations on an unconstrained run rate

    Anthropic at roughly nine hundred billion for fifty billion of ARR sounds rich until you adjust for the fact that the company is severely compute constrained. Gavin estimates that, unconstrained, Anthropic might be at one hundred fifty to two hundred billion in run rate revenue, putting the implied multiple closer to five times. He also points out that Claude Opus now generates roughly seventy percent fewer tokens for the same question than it used to. Token quantity correlates with answer quality, and Anthropic is rate limiting and shrinking outputs to ration capacity across its user base.

    Anthropic and OpenAI are also structurally very different. Anthropic has burned around eighty percent less cash than OpenAI to reach a comparable revenue scale. That implies very different long term returns on invested capital, though OpenAI has done a better job locking in compute and Sarah Friar is one of the most exceptional CFOs Gavin has worked with.

    Why neither lab is raising at a three trillion dollar valuation

    The answer Gavin gives is that both labs are deliberately leaving valuation on the table the way Elon has done for two decades. SpaceX compounded at low thirty percent annually for a decade because Elon never pushed price. The result is a permanent superpower of access to capital. Investors trust him because they have made money with him for twenty years. That is a moat that compounds with every round.

    Anthropic could probably raise at a one hundred percent premium to its rumored latest mark. They are choosing not to. In an uncertain world (Ukraine, Russia, Iran, Taiwan), preserving the ability to raise more capital later at fair prices is more valuable than maximizing this round.

    Watts and wafers, the two real constraints

    Capitalism is solving the watts problem. The leading PE infrastructure investors now say zoning and political approval, not chips or energy, are the gating factors. Companies are deferring big capex announcements until after the US midterms. Turbine capacity is being doubled at the manufacturers. Companies like Boom Aerospace are repurposing jet engines for grid use. Watts probably ease meaningfully in 2027 and 2028 and then orbital compute does the rest.

    Wafers are the harder problem because they live in Taiwan, run on handshakes, and depend on a corporate culture that does not respond to public market incentives. TSMC is essentially the GDP, water consumption, and electricity consumption of Taiwan. Its leadership treats the company as the legacy of Morris Chang. The Silicon Shield doctrine is real and internal.

    Orbital compute as racks in space

    The biggest mental update Gavin asks listeners to make is to stop picturing data centers in space as Pentagon sized space stations. A Blackwell rack is three thousand pounds and roughly the size of a refrigerator. SpaceX has shown a concept satellite of about that size. Solar wings extend five hundred feet to each side and the radiator extends hundreds of feet behind, both possible because the orbit is sun synchronous and the orientation is fixed relative to the sun.

    SpaceX engineers Gavin has spoken to at Starbase express genuine confidence that they have solved cooling at these power levels. They have. Starlink V3 satellites already operate at twenty kilowatts. A Blackwell rack is one hundred kilowatts. The same company operates the world’s largest satellite fleet and the world’s largest data center on Earth via xAI Colossus. The racks are connected to each other with lasers traveling through vacuum, technology already deployed in every Starlink. The naysayers, Gavin observes, are armchair skeptics and Larry Ellison’s response (he is out there landing rockets, no one else is) is the right frame.

    Terafab in Texas and the threat to TSMC’s discipline

    Terafab, the SpaceX and Tesla joint venture, intends to be the largest fab in the world. The partnership with Intel grants access to fifty years of foundry institutional knowledge, allowing Terafab to start three to five quarters behind the leading node rather than fifteen years behind. The A teams at the semicap equipment companies (ASML, KLA, Lam Research, Applied Materials) will follow Elon’s reputation in hardware engineering the same way they followed TSMC twenty years ago when Intel stumbled.

    The talent strategy is the part most observers underestimate. Recruit the best engineers globally, then import their families, their restaurants, their staff. Build Taiwan Town, Japan Town, and Korea Town next to the fab. Optimize the human experience for the people whose work matters. Intel and Samsung do not think that way.

    Bubble watch and the year 2000 comparison

    Every foundational technology in modern history has had a bubble. Railroads, canals, the internet. Carlota Perez documented why. Markets correctly identify the importance, diversity of opinion collapses, supply gets ahead of demand, the bubble crashes. The current cycle has two important differences. The buildout is overwhelmingly funded out of operating cash flow, not debt. Every GPU is running at one hundred percent utilization, while at the peak of the fiber bubble ninety nine percent of fiber was unused.

    TSMC discipline is the single largest reason a bubble has not formed. If Jensen could buy everything TSMC could theoretically make, Nvidia could sell two to three trillion dollars of GPUs in 2026 and 2027. At some point that becomes more than the market can absorb. If Intel or Samsung Foundry catches up at the leading node, the other will too. TSMC’s pricing discipline collapses and the bubble starts.

    The Pareto frontier and the loss of Google’s cost advantage

    The most important chart in AI is the Pareto frontier of model intelligence versus per token cost. Nine months ago, Google’s TPU based models dominated every point on it. OpenAI, Anthropic, and xAI sat inside the frontier. Today the frontier is dominated by Anthropic and OpenAI, with Grok 4.3 on the frontier and Gemini 3.1 hanging on by subsidization more than economics. The most likely cause is Google’s conservative TPU V8 design, an attempt to reduce dependence on Broadcom and Nvidia that sacrificed per token economics.

    The bitter lesson, frontier tokens, and continual learning

    Three open questions dominate AI investing. The first is whether Richard Sutton’s bitter lesson (more compute beats human algorithmic cleverness) gets violated by ASI itself optimizing for efficiency. Closer observers of AI are more skeptical of a violation. Gavin thinks ASI’s first move will be to make itself more efficient and more resourced, which is technically a temporary violation.

    The second is whether frontier tokens keep capturing the overwhelming share of economic value at the model layer. Today they do, surprisingly. Gemini 3.1 Pro was mindblowing nine months ago and is intolerable today. The third is when continual learning arrives. Today’s models need a million fire touches to learn what a human learns from one. True continual learning would mean dynamic weight updates in real time and would produce a fast takeoff.

    From all you can eat to usage based AI pricing

    AI is shifting from flat fee plans to usage based pricing. The historical analogy is cellular and long distance. Both stopped being great growth industries when they went all you can eat. AI just made the opposite move. The consequence is that flat fee subscribers, even on premium consumer plans, get a rate limited and token throttled version of the frontier model. Enterprise plans with usage based billing are now required to evaluate true capability. Gavin thinks the combination of new compute coming online and usage based pricing is what gets OpenAI and Anthropic past two hundred billion in combined ARR this year.

    Chip startups, prefill decode disaggregation, and Cerebras

    Trying to build a better GPU is the wrong move. The four scaled players (Nvidia, AMD, Trainium, TPU) have copy capability for any one to three percent share design that looks attractive. The good news for startups is that disaggregated inference (separating prefill and decode) opens a richer design canvas. Prefill is memory capacity bound. Decode is memory bandwidth bound. Each can be optimized independently. Andrew Fox’s analogy is a British naval ship of the eighteenth century. Prefill is loading the cannon. Decode is firing it.

    Cerebras is the model. Wafer scale computing is genuinely different and genuinely hard. It took three generations of chips to get right. Andrew Feldman and his team had the grit to keep going through chip one being a failure. The design has a high ratio of on chip compute and memory relative to shoreline IO, which is why Cerebras is now experimenting with putting an optical wafer on top of the compute wafer to solve scale out.

    GPU useful lives and the rescue of private credit

    One of the strongest claims in the conversation is that disaggregated inference will stretch GPU useful lives to ten or fifteen years. The skeptical narrative (GPUs are obsolete in two years, companies are cooking their depreciation books) is wrong. You can put a Cerebras system or Groq LPU in front of older Hopper or Ampere parts, use them only for prefill, and run them until they physically melt. Private credit, which is in pain from SaaS loans and which underwrote GPU loans on three to four year lives, may be saved by this.

    If GPU financing rates can come down from low sevens to five or six percent, the mathematics of the AI buildout improves materially. That is a structural tailwind that compounds for years.

    The application layer, the token path, and a new prisoner’s dilemma

    Trillions of dollars of value have been destroyed at the application layer, not created. Cursor and Cognition are the rare scaled exceptions, and they got there by focusing on coding very early. As Amjad Masad noted, coding is plausibly the shortest path to ASI because a coding agent can write itself into any new domain. Jamin Ball’s frame is that the new venture filter is whether the company is in the token path. Data Bricks is. Most application layer startups are not.

    Jensen could probably get close to the frontier with Nemotron whenever he wants, and the strategic question of whether to do that is a new prisoner’s dilemma. If every frontier lab agrees not to release best models via API, Chinese open source falls steadily behind. If anyone defects, the defector gains revenue and resources, and everyone else has to defect. The same dynamic exists between TSMC, Intel, and Samsung. If Nvidia or AMD ever truly used an alternative foundry, that foundry would catch up rapidly.

    Rating the hyperscalers

    Google has the largest compute installed base, the YouTube data that matters in a robotics world, and a search business that prints. Their loss of TPU cost leadership is the surprise of the year. If Google IO in five days does not produce a leapfrog model, the Nvidia centric narrative gets even stronger.

    Meta deserves real credit. Zuckerberg made Meta AI first internally faster than any other internet giant, paid up for the talent contracts when no one else would, and shipped Musa as a first model from MSL that is close to the Pareto frontier. Amazon is well positioned on Trainium, robotics in retail, and a Nova model line that is better than it gets credit for. Microsoft flinched on capex in early 2025 and lost position. Satya Nadella’s current decision to use Microsoft compute for Copilot rather than reselling to OpenAI is courageous and probably correct, even at the cost of stock price.

    The most interesting cross hyperscaler metric is startup engagement. Nvidia and Amazon engage deeply with startups. Google is next. Broadcom is the favored ASIC partner. AMD, Microsoft, and Meta have minimal startup engagement, which Gavin believes will cost them as the best teams now sit at startups.

    Personal safety, geopolitics, and the Pax Americana case

    The closing section turns darker. Personal safety in an AI era requires a family or company safe word that cannot be socially engineered. Deepfake voice and video extortion via something that looks exactly like your child calling on FaceTime is already feasible. Political violence against AI leaders is a real concern. Geopolitically, Ukraine is winning largely because it has the best battlefield AI outside America and Israel. How adversaries respond to that asymmetry is the next great variable.

    Gavin’s optimistic frame is the Pax Americana. After 1945 the US had a nuclear monopoly and could have controlled the world. Instead it rebuilt Germany and Japan, both of which became the most reliable American allies for the next eighty years. If AI dominance plays out similarly, this is a generationally positive story rather than a destabilizing one. The personal anecdote that closes the conversation is a friend whose daughter was diagnosed with a rare genetic condition. He spun up agents, identified a drug already on the market that addresses her mutation, and her life is immeasurably different because of AI. That is the upside.

    Thoughts

    The Anthropic eleven billion in a month framing is the kind of stat that resets priors. The right way to interpret it is not as a one off but as a measure of how fast value can compound when the underlying technology improves on a curve steeper than the ability of the rest of the economy to absorb it. The skeptical question is whether that ARR is durable or whether it is heavily tied to a customer base of other AI companies that are themselves on a single venture funded year of runway. The bullish answer is that frontier coding, frontier research, and frontier enterprise tasks are not going to stop being valuable, and Anthropic is the best at all three. Both can be true. The number is still extraordinary.

    The argument that TSMC discipline is the only thing preventing a bubble is the analytically tightest part of the conversation. The implied trade is to watch TSMC capacity additions like a hawk and to be more, not less, cautious if Intel Foundry or Samsung Foundry ever announce real share at the leading node. The Terafab thesis is more speculative but more interesting. If Elon’s talent recruiting playbook works and the Intel partnership gives Terafab a real seat at the table within five years, the geometry of the global semiconductor industry shifts in a way that is bullish for American manufacturing, bullish for power and water infrastructure in Texas, and ambiguous for TSMC itself.

    The Pareto frontier discussion deserves more attention than it usually gets. Pricing leadership in AI is not a vanity metric. It determines who can subsidize free tier usage, who can absorb compute shortages, who can ship cheaper enterprise plans, and ultimately whose model becomes the default for any given workload. Google losing per token leadership in nine months is one of the most under analyzed events in the sector and it explains a lot about why Anthropic and OpenAI are growing the way they are. If Google IO does not produce a leapfrog model, the implied verdict on TPU V8 design choices gets a lot harsher.

    The application layer destruction point is worth sitting with. Founders building on top of frontier models are competing in a world where the model itself moves faster than any moat they can build, where the model lab can absorb their niche if it gets interesting, and where the only protection is either deep token path integration or a niche so small the lab does not bother. That is a much harsher venture environment than the early SaaS era. The compensating opportunity is that one human can now run a hundred agents, so the ceiling on what a small team can build is correspondingly higher. The bet is that productivity per founder rises faster than competitive pressure from the labs. We will find out.

    The orbital compute pitch is the section that will polarize listeners. The naive read is that this is science fiction. The closer read is that every component (sun synchronous orbit, laser interconnect, twenty kilowatt satellite buses, ten thousand satellite manufacturing cadence, full rocket reusability) already exists. The remaining engineering problems are repair, maintenance, and radiator scale, all of which are real but tractable on a five to ten year horizon. The strategic implication is that the political and zoning ceiling on terrestrial data centers becomes less binding if orbital compute is a credible alternative for inference workloads. The investor implication is that being short the watts and cooling complex on a five year horizon is a real trade, not a meme.

    Watch the full conversation here.

  • Jensen Huang at Stanford CS153 Frontier Systems on Co-Design, Agentic Computing, Vera Rubin, Open Models, and the Million-X Decade That Reshaped AI Infrastructure

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsQB0n0YV3k

    NVIDIA CEO Jensen Huang returned to Stanford for the CS153 Frontier Systems class (the room nicknamed itself “AI Coachella”) to lay out, in raw form, how he thinks about the computer being reinvented for the first time in over sixty years. Across roughly seventy minutes of student questions he walks through the codesign philosophy that gave NVIDIA a million-x decade, the architectural through-line from Hopper to Grace Blackwell to Vera Rubin to Feynman, the case for open source foundation models, the realities of tokens per watt and MFU, energy demand running a thousand times higher, the China and export-control debate, and his own biggest strategic mistakes. Watch the full conversation on YouTube.

    TLDW

    Huang argues every layer of computing has changed: the programming model, the system architecture, the deployment pattern, the economics. Co-design across CPUs, GPUs, networking, storage, switches and compilers gave NVIDIA roughly a million-x speed-up over ten years versus the ten-x Moore’s Law era, and that headroom is what let researchers say “just train on the whole internet.” Hopper was built for pre-training, Grace Blackwell NVLink72 for inference and reasoning (50x over Hopper in two years), Vera Rubin is built for agents that load long memory, call tools and need a low-latency single-threaded CPU bolted directly to the GPU, and Feynman extends that to swarms of agents that spawn sub-agents. Open weights matter because safety, sovereignty (230-plus languages no one else will fund) and domain models for biology, autonomy, robotics and climate need a foundation that NVIDIA is willing to seed. Compute is not really the scarce resource (Huang says place the order and the chips ship), the broken thing is institutional budgeting that can’t put a billion dollars into a shared university supercomputer. Energy demand is heading a thousand times higher and this is finally the moment market forces alone will fund sustainable generation. On geopolitics he rejects the GPUs-as-atomic-bombs framing and warns America will end up like its telecom industry if it cedes two thirds of the world. On career he advises seeking suffering on purpose. On strategy he says observe, reason from first principles, build a mental model, work backwards, minimize opportunity cost, maximize optionality.

    Key Takeaways

    • The computing model has been substantially unchanged since the IBM System 360, sixty-plus years ago. Huang’s first computer architecture book was the System 360 manual. AI is the first true reinvention.
    • Old computing was pre-recorded retrieval. New computing is generated, contextually aware and continuous. Cloud was on-demand. Agentic systems run continuously.
    • Codesign is NVIDIA’s central thesis. Inherited from the Hennessy and Patterson RISC era at Stanford, extended across CPUs, GPUs, networking, switches, storage, compilers and frameworks all optimized together.
    • The result of full-stack codesign: roughly 1,000,000x faster compute over ten years, versus a generous 10x to 100x for Moore’s Law in the same period. Dennard scaling effectively ended a decade ago.
    • That million-x speed-up is what unlocked “train on all of the internet” as a realistic AI strategy.
    • After GPT, Huang says it was obvious thinking was next. Reasoning is just generating tokens consumed internally, then using tools is generating tokens consumed externally. Agentic systems followed predictably.
    • Education needs AI baked into the curriculum, not just taught as a subject. Pre-recorded textbooks cannot keep pace with knowledge being generated in real time.
    • Huang says he cannot learn anymore without AI. He has the AI read the paper, then read every related paper, then become a dedicated researcher he can interrogate.
    • Mead and Conway and the first-principles methodology of semiconductor design are still worth learning even though most of the scaling tricks have been exhausted.
    • NVIDIA itself is one of the largest consumers of Anthropic and OpenAI tokens in the world. One hundred percent of NVIDIA engineers are now agentically supported. Huang recommends Claude and similar tools by name and says open-source downloads will not match the integrated product harness.
    • NVIDIA still invests heavily in open foundation models because language and intelligence represent the codification of human knowledge. Five pillars: Nemotron (language), BioNeMo (biology), Alphamayo (autonomous vehicles), Groot (humanoid robotics) and a climate science model (mesoscale multiphysics).
    • Sovereign language models matter. Roughly 230 world languages will never be a top priority for a commercial frontier lab. Nemotron is near-frontier and fully fine-tunable so any country can adapt it.
    • Safety and security require open weights. You cannot defend against or audit a black box. Transparent systems let researchers interrogate models and let defenders deploy swarms.
    • The future of cyber defense is not bigger-model-versus-bigger-model. It is trillions of cheap fast small models like Nemotron Nano surrounding the threat.
    • Domain models fuse language priors with world models. Alphamayo learned to drive safely on a few million miles instead of billions because it can reason like a human about the road.
    • MFU (Model Flops Utilization) is a misleading metric. Huang says he wants low MFU, because that means he over-provisioned every resource and never gets pinned by Amdahl’s law during a spike.
    • The xAI Memphis cluster running at 11 percent MFU is not necessarily a failure mode. In disaggregated prefill plus decode inference you can deliver very high tokens per watt with very low MFU.
    • The right metric is performance, ultimately tokens per watt as a proxy for intelligence per watt, and even that needs adjustment because not all tokens are equal. Coding tokens are worth more than other tokens.
    • Hopper was designed for pre-training. NVIDIA chose to build multi-billion-dollar systems when the largest existing scientific supercomputer cost $350 million, with no proven customer base. It worked.
    • Grace Blackwell NVLink72 was designed for inference, especially the high-memory-bandwidth decode phase. It is the world’s first rack-scale computer and delivered a 50x speed-up over Hopper in two years, against an expected 2x from Moore’s Law.
    • Vera Rubin is designed for agents. Long-term memory wired into storage and into the GPU fabric, working memory, heavy tool use, and Vera, a CPU optimized for low-latency multi-core single-threaded code so a multi-billion-dollar GPU system does not stall waiting on a slow tool call.
    • Feynman is being shaped for swarms of agents with sub-agents and sub-sub-agents, a recursive software topology that demands a new compute pattern.
    • Tokens per watt improved 50x in one generation. Compounding energy efficiency is the lever NVIDIA controls directly.
    • Total compute energy demand is heading roughly a thousand times higher than today, possibly two orders of magnitude beyond that. Huang says he would not be surprised if the estimate is low.
    • For the first time in history, market forces alone are enough to fund solar, nuclear and grid upgrades. Government subsidies are no longer required to make sustainable energy investment rational.
    • Copper interconnect is becoming a bottleneck. Photonics is moving from optional to structural inside racks and across them.
    • Comparing NVIDIA GPUs to atomic bombs, Huang says, is a stupid analogy. A billion people use NVIDIA GPUs. He advocates them to his family. He does not advocate atomic bombs to anyone.
    • If the United States cedes two thirds of the global market to competitors on policy grounds, the American technology industry will end up like American telecommunications, which was policied out of existence.
    • Huang directly rejects AI doom-by-singularity narratives. It is not true that we have no idea how these systems work. It is not true that the technology becomes infinitely powerful in a nanosecond. He calls the rhetoric irresponsible and harmful to the field students are about to enter.
    • On Stanford specifically: if the university president places an order, NVIDIA will deliver the chips. The bottleneck is that no university department has a billion-dollar compute budget because budgeting is fragmented across grants. Stanford’s $40 billion endowment is more than enough to fix that.
    • “It’s Stanford’s fault” is meant as empowerment. If something is your fault, you can solve it.
    • Career advice: do not optimize purely for passion. Most people do not yet know what they love. Pick the job in front of you and do it as well as possible. Even as CEO, Huang says, 90 percent of the work is hard and he suffers through it.
    • Suffering on purpose builds the muscle of resilience. When the company, the team or the family needs you to be tough, that muscle has to already exist.
    • NVIDIA’s first generation of products was technically wrong in nearly every dimension: curved surfaces instead of triangles, no Z-buffer, forward instead of inverse texture mapping, no floating point. The strategic recovery, not the technology, taught Huang the lessons that have lasted decades.
    • The biggest clean strategic mistake Huang names is the move into mobile chips (Tegra). It grew to a billion dollars then went to zero when Qualcomm’s modem dominance shut NVIDIA out of the 3G to 4G transition. The recovery into automotive and robotics (the Thor chip is the great great great grandson of that mobile lineage) was real, but Huang refuses to rationalize the original choice.
    • Forecasting framework: observe, reason from first principles, ask “so what” and “what next” until you have a mental model of the future, place your company inside that model, then work backwards while minimizing opportunity cost and maximizing optionality.
    • Best part of the CEO job: living at the intersection of vision, strategy and execution surrounded by people capable enough to make ambitious visions real. Worst part: the responsibility for everyone who joined the spaceship, especially in the near-death moments NVIDIA had four or five times early on.
    • Underrated insider note: Huang’s first apple pie with cheese, first hot fudge sandwich and first milkshake all happened at Denny’s. The Superbird, the fried chicken and a custom Superbird-style ham and cheese with tomato and mustard are his order.

    Detailed Summary

    Computing reinvented from the ground up

    Huang frames the moment as the first true rewrite of the computer in sixty-plus years. From the IBM System 360 forward, the mental model of writing code, running code, taking a computer to market and reasoning about applications stayed roughly constant. AI changes the programming model itself. Software is no longer a compiled binary running deterministically on a CPU. It is a neural network running on a GPU producing generated, contextual, real-time output. That cascades into how companies are organized, what tools developers use, what the network and storage stack look like, and what an application is even allowed to do. Robo-taxis, he notes, are an application no one would have attempted before deep learning unlocked perception.

    Codesign and the million-x decade

    Codesign is the philosophical center of the talk. Huang traces it to the RISC work of John Hennessy at Stanford, where simpler instruction sets won by being co-designed with the compiler rather than maximally optimized in isolation. NVIDIA extends the principle across every layer simultaneously: GPU architecture, CPU architecture, NVLink and NVSwitch fabrics, photonic interconnects, networking silicon, storage paths, CUDA libraries, frameworks and ultimately the model design. The numbers Huang gives are arresting. Moore’s Law in its prime delivered roughly 100x per decade. By the time Dennard scaling broke, real-world gains had compressed to roughly 10x. NVIDIA’s codesigned stack delivered between 100,000x and 1,000,000x over the same ten-year window. That non-linear speed-up is, in Huang’s telling, the precondition for modern AI: it is what allowed researchers to stop curating training sets and just feed the entire internet to the model.

    Education has to fuse first principles with AI tools

    Asked how curriculum should evolve, Huang argues AI must be integrated into the learning process, not just taught about. He recalls Hennessy writing his textbook by hand a chapter a week while Huang was a student, and says pre-recorded textbooks cannot keep up with the rate at which AI generates new knowledge. He describes his own learning workflow: hand the paper to an AI, then have it read the entire surrounding literature, then treat the AI as a dedicated researcher who can be interrogated. At the same time he defends the classics. Mead and Conway are still the foundation. Most modern semiconductor scaling tricks have been exhausted, but knowing where the field came from sharpens judgment when designing what comes next.

    Open source and the five domain pillars

    Huang gives one of the most detailed public accounts of why NVIDIA invests so heavily in open foundation models even while being a top customer of closed labs. He recommends Claude and OpenAI by name for production coding work, and says 100 percent of NVIDIA engineers are now agentically supported. The open-weights case rests on three legs. First, language is the codification of intelligence, and there are at least 230 languages that no commercial lab will ever prioritize. Nemotron is built near frontier and released so any country or community can fine-tune it. Second, the same representation-learning approach has to be replicated in domains where the data is not internet text, so NVIDIA seeded BioNeMo for biology, Alphamayo for autonomy, Groot for humanoid robotics and a climate model for mesoscale multiphysics. The economics of those fields would never produce a foundation model on their own. Third, safety and security require transparency. A black box cannot be defended or audited, and the future of cyber defense is not bigger-model-versus-bigger-model but swarms of cheap fast small models like Nemotron Nano surrounding the threat.

    MFU is the wrong metric, tokens per watt is closer

    A student raises the leaked memo that the xAI Memphis cluster is running at 11 percent Model Flops Utilization. Huang flips the framing. He says he would rather be at low MFU all the time, because that means he over-provisioned flops, memory bandwidth, memory capacity and network capacity. Bottlenecks shift constantly, so over-provisioning across every dimension is what lets the system absorb a spike without getting pinned by Amdahl’s law. In disaggregated inference, where prefill and decode are physically separated and decode is bandwidth-bound rather than flop-bound, NVLink72 can deliver extremely high tokens per watt while reporting very low MFU. Huang argues the right framing is performance, and ultimately tokens per watt as a rough proxy for intelligence per watt, adjusted for the fact that not all tokens are equal. A coding token is worth more than a generic token.

    Hopper, Grace Blackwell NVLink72, Vera Rubin, Feynman

    Huang gives the clearest public framing of NVIDIA’s roadmap as a sequence of architectural answers to evolving compute patterns. Hopper was built for pre-training, at a moment when NVIDIA chose to build multi-billion-dollar machines while the largest scientific supercomputer in the world cost $350 million and the marketplace for such systems was, on paper, zero. Grace Blackwell NVLink72 was the answer to inference and reasoning: a rack-scale computer that ganged 72 GPUs together because decode needs aggregate memory bandwidth far beyond a single chip. The generation-over-generation speed-up was 50x in two years, twenty-five times what Moore’s Law would have delivered. Vera Rubin is being built explicitly for agents. Agents load long-term memory from storage that has to be wired directly into the GPU fabric, they use working memory, they call tools that run on a CPU, and they wait. So the CPU has to be Vera, optimized for low-latency single-threaded code, because the multi-billion-dollar GPU system cannot afford to idle waiting on a slow tool call. Feynman extends the pattern to swarms of agents with sub-agents and sub-sub-agents, a recursive software topology that will demand its own compute pattern.

    Energy demand and the grid

    Huang’s energy projection is one of the most aggressive numbers in the talk. NVIDIA can compound tokens per watt by 50x per generation through codesign, but the total compute demand is heading roughly a thousand times higher, and Huang says he would not be surprised if the real figure is one or two orders of magnitude beyond that. The reason is structural: future computing is generative and continuous, not pre-recorded and on-demand. The good news, he argues, is that this is the best moment in the history of humanity to invest in sustainable generation. Market forces alone are now sufficient to fund solar, nuclear and grid upgrades. Government subsidies are no longer required to make the math work.

    Adversarial countries, export controls and the telecom warning

    This is the segment where Huang is visibly fired up. He attacks the GPUs-as-atomic-bombs framing on its face. NVIDIA GPUs power medical imaging, video games and soy sauce delivery. A billion people use them. He advocates them to his family. The analogy collapses at the first comparison. He attacks the second framing, that American companies should not compete abroad because they will lose anyway, as a self-fulfilling defeat. Competition makes the company better. The third framing, that depriving the rest of the world of general-purpose computing benefits the United States, also fails on first principles: it benefits one or two American companies at the cost of an entire industry. The cautionary parallel is telecommunications. The United States once had a leading position in telecom fundamental technology and policied itself out of it. Huang’s worry, voiced explicitly to a room of CS students, is that they will graduate into a shell of a computer industry if the same path is repeated.

    AI doom and rational optimism

    In the same arc Huang rejects the science-fiction framing of AI as a singularity that arrives suddenly on a Wednesday at 7pm and ends civilization. He calls those claims irresponsible, says they are not true, and points out that the people advancing them are believed by audiences who then make policy on that basis. It is not true that no one understands how these systems work. It is not true that intelligence becomes infinitely powerful instantaneously. It is not true that there is no defense. His framing, which the host echoes as “rational optimism,” is that the goal is to create a future where people care about computers because the technology students are learning is worth mastering.

    Stanford’s compute problem is Stanford’s fault

    A student presses on the scarcity of compute for independent researchers, startups and universities inside the United States. Huang’s answer is sharp: there is no shortage. Place the order and the chips will arrive. The actual broken thing is institutional. University grants are fragmented across departments. No researcher can raise enough on a single grant to fund a billion-dollar shared cluster, and no one shares. He compares it to showing up at the grocery store demanding a billion dollars of tomatoes today. The solution is planning, aggregation and a campus-scale supercomputer, the way Stanford once built the linear accelerator. The endowment is $40 billion. Pulling a billion off it, contracting cloud capacity and giving every student and researcher AI supercomputer access is, in Huang’s view, obviously doable. When he says “it is Stanford’s fault” the host laughs, but Huang clarifies: if it is your fault you have the power to fix it.

    Career, suffering and resilience

    Asked how a CS student should spend the next few years, Huang pushes back on the standard “follow your passion” advice. Most people do not know what they love yet, because no one knows what they do not know. The bar of demanding joy from every working day is too high. Whatever the job is, do it as well as you can. Even as CEO of NVIDIA he says he genuinely loves about 10 percent of his work. The other 90 percent is hard and he suffers through it. He recommends suffering on purpose, because resilience is a muscle that only builds under load, and when the company, the team or the family needs that muscle, it has to already exist. Earlier in his life that meant cleaning toilets and busing tables at Denny’s. He does it today running a multi-trillion-dollar company.

    The biggest mistakes

    Huang separates technical mistakes from strategic mistakes. NVIDIA’s first generation of products was technically wrong in almost every way: curved surfaces instead of triangles, no Z-buffer, forward instead of inverse texture mapping, no floating point inside. The company wasted two and a half years. But the strategic genius of the recovery, the reading of the market, the conservation of resources and the reapplication of talent, is what taught him strategy. The clean strategic mistake he names is mobile. NVIDIA’s Tegra line grew to a billion dollars of revenue and then collapsed to zero when Qualcomm’s modem dominance locked NVIDIA out of the 3G to 4G transition. Huang explicitly refuses the comforting rationalization that the Tegra effort fed the Thor automotive chip (“Thor is the great great great grandson”). The original decision, he says, was a waste of time. The lesson is to think one or two clicks further about whether a market is structurally winnable before committing the company.

    Forecasting under fog of war

    The final substantive exchange is on forecasting. Huang’s method has four steps. Observe what is actually happening (AlexNet crushing two decades of computer vision research in one shot, GPT producing reasoning by token generation). Reason from first principles about why it works. Ask “so what” and “what next” recursively until a mental model of the future emerges. Place the company inside that future and work backwards. Crucially, expect to be partly wrong. Some outcomes will absolutely happen, some will likely happen, some might happen, and the strategy has to be robust across that distribution. The real cost of any strategic choice is the opportunity cost of the alternatives you did not take, so the discipline is to minimize that cost and maximize optionality while letting the journey itself pay for the journey.

    Thoughts

    The most useful thing in this conversation is the explicit architectural mapping of compute patterns to chip generations. Hopper for pre-training. Grace Blackwell NVLink72 for inference, because decode is bandwidth-bound and a single chip cannot supply it. Vera Rubin for agents, because tool calls stall multi-billion-dollar GPU systems and so the CPU has to be optimized for low-latency single-threaded code. Feynman for swarms. That sequence is not marketing. It is a falsifiable thesis about where the bottleneck moves next, and every other infrastructure company should be measuring themselves against it. If Huang is right that swarms of sub-agents are the next dominant pattern, then the design pressure shifts from raw flops to fabric topology, memory hierarchy and storage-to-GPU latency. That has implications for everyone downstream, including the hyperscalers building competing accelerators.

    The MFU section is the most intellectually generous moment in the talk. The instinct in the AI ops community has been to chase MFU as if it were a virtue. Huang argues, persuasively, that low MFU is consistent with high tokens per watt in a disaggregated inference setup, and that bottlenecks rotate fast enough that over-provisioning every resource is the rational design. That reframing matters because it changes what “scarce” means. Compute is not scarce in the way the discourse treats it. What is scarce is a coherent system designed end-to-end. The xAI 11 percent number, in that frame, is not embarrassing. It is the natural reading of a workload that is mostly decode.

    The Stanford segment is the part most likely to be quoted out of context. “It’s Stanford’s fault” is a deliberately provocative line, but the underlying claim is correct and load-bearing. Compute is not gated by NVIDIA refusing to ship chips. It is gated by the fact that fragmented grant funding cannot aggregate into the billion-dollar order that NVIDIA can fulfill. The implication is that universities and national labs need a structural change in how they pool capital for compute, and that the current model of every researcher buying a handful of cards is genuinely obsolete. Huang’s nudge about pulling a billion off the endowment is concrete enough to be acted on, and other major research universities should read this segment as a direct prompt.

    The geopolitical segment is the highest-stakes one. The telecommunications comparison is correct as a historical pattern, and Huang is one of the very few executives in a position to deliver that warning credibly. The unresolved tension is that the argument applies symmetrically. If American AI dominance is built by selling globally, that includes selling into adversarial states, and the policy question is where the line falls. Huang does not answer that question. He attacks the framing that lets the question be answered badly. That is a meaningful contribution to the discourse even if it does not resolve the underlying tradeoff.

    The career advice section is the part the social-media clips will mishandle. “Seek suffering” reads as macho when extracted. In context it is a specific operational claim about how resilience compounds, and it is paired with the Tegra story where Huang himself paid the price of not thinking one more click ahead. That kind of self-implication is rare in CEO talks, and it is the reason the talk is worth listening to in full rather than only reading the recap.

    Watch the full Stanford CS153 Frontier Systems conversation with Jensen Huang here.

  • Alex Wang on Leaving Scale to Run Meta Superintelligence Labs, MuseSpark, Personal Super Intelligence, and Building an Economy of Agents

    Alex Wang, head of Meta Superintelligence Labs, sits down with Ashley Vance and Kylie Robinson on the Core Memory podcast for his first long-form interview since Meta’s quasi-acquisition of Scale AI roughly ten months ago. He walks through how MSL is structured, why Llama was off-trajectory, what made MuseSpark’s token efficiency surprise the team, how Meta thinks about a future “economy of agents in a data center,” and where he lands on safety, open source, robotics, brain computer interfaces, and even model welfare.

    TLDW

    Wang explains that Meta Superintelligence Labs is a fully rebuilt frontier effort organized around four principles (take superintelligence seriously, technical voices loudest, scientific rigor, big bets) and three velocity levers (high compute per researcher, extreme talent density, ambitious research bets). He confirms Llama was off the frontier when he arrived, so MSL rebuilt the pre-training, reinforcement learning, and data stacks from scratch. MuseSpark is described as the “appetizer” on the scaling ladder, notable for its strong token efficiency, with much larger and stronger models coming in the coming months. He pushes back on the mercenary narrative around recruiting, frames Meta’s edge as compute plus billions of consumers and hundreds of millions of small businesses, sketches a vision of personal super intelligence delivered through Ray-Ban Meta glasses and WhatsApp, and outlines why physical intelligence, robotics (the new Assured Robot Intelligence acquisition), health super intelligence with CZI, brain computer interfaces, and even model welfare are core to Meta’s roadmap. He dismisses reported infighting with Bosworth and Cox as gossip, declines to comment on the Manus situation, and says safety guardrails (bio, cyber, loss of control) are why MuseSpark cannot currently be open sourced, while smaller open variants are being prepared.

    Key Takeaways

    • Meta Superintelligence Labs (MSL) is the umbrella, with TBD Lab as the large-model research unit reporting directly to Alex Wang, PAR (Product and Applied Research) under Nat Friedman, FAIR for exploratory science, and Meta Compute under Daniel Gross handling long-term GPU and data center planning.
    • Wang says Llama was not on a frontier trajectory when he arrived, so MSL had to do a “full renovation” of the pre-training stack, RL stack, data pipeline, and research science.
    • The first cultural fix was getting the lab to “take superintelligence seriously” as a near-term, achievable goal, not an abstract bet. Big incumbents often lack that religious conviction.
    • Four MSL principles: take superintelligence seriously, let technical voices be loudest, demand scientific rigor on basics, and make big bets.
    • Three velocity levers Wang identified for catching and overtaking the frontier: high compute per researcher, very high talent density in a small team, and willingness to fund ambitious research bets.
    • Wang rejects the mercenary recruiting narrative. He says most hires had strong financial prospects at their prior labs already and joined for compute access, talent density, and the chance to build from scratch.
    • On the famous soup story, Wang neither confirms nor denies Zuck personally made the soup, but says recruiting was highly individualized and signaled how seriously Meta cared about each researcher’s agenda.
    • Yann LeCun publicly called Wang young and inexperienced. Wang says they reconciled in person at a conference in India where LeCun congratulated him on MuseSpark.
    • Sam Altman, asked by Vance for comment, “did not have flattering things to say” about Wang. Wang hopes industry animosities subside as systems approach superintelligence.
    • Wang’s management philosophy borrows the Steve Jobs line: hire brilliant people so they tell you what to do, not the other way around.
    • MuseSpark is framed as an “appetizer” data point on the MSL scaling ladder, not a flagship.
    • The MuseSpark program is built around predictable scaling on multiple axes: pre-training, reinforcement learning, test-time compute, and multi-agent collaboration (the 16-agent content planning mode).
    • MuseSpark outperformed internal expectations and showed emergent capabilities in agentic visual coding, including generating websites and games from prompts, helped by combined agentic and multimodal strength.
    • MuseSpark’s biggest external signal is token efficiency. On benchmarks like Artificial Analysis it hits similar results with far fewer tokens than competitor models, which Wang attributes to a clean stack rebuilt by experts rather than inefficiencies patched by longer thinking.
    • Larger MSL models are arriving in the coming months and Wang expects them to be state of the art in the areas MSL is focused on.
    • The Meta strategic edge: massive compute, billions of consumers across the family of apps, and hundreds of millions of small businesses already on Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp.
    • Wang’s headline framing: Dario Amodei talks about a “country of geniuses in a data center.” Meta is targeting an “economy of agents in a data center,” with consumer agents and business agents transacting and collaborating.
    • Consumer AI sentiment is in the toilet because, unlike developers who have had a Claude Code moment, ordinary people have not yet experienced AI as a genuine personal agency unlock.
    • Wang acknowledges the product overhang. Meta held back from deep AI integration across its apps until the models were good enough, and is now entering the integration phase.
    • Ray-Ban Meta glasses are the canonical example of personal super intelligence hardware, with the model seeing what the user sees, hearing what they hear, capturing context, and surfacing proactive insights.
    • Wang admits even AI-native users like Kylie Robinson, who lives in WhatsApp, have not naturally used Meta AI yet. He bets that better models plus deeper integration close that gap.
    • On the competitive landscape: a year ago everyone assumed ChatGPT had already won consumer. Claude Code has since become the fastest growing business in history, and Gemini has taken consumer market share. Wang’s read: AI is far from endgame and each new capability tier unlocks a new dominant form factor.
    • On open source: MuseSpark triggered guardrails in Meta’s Advanced AI Scaling Framework around bio, chem, cyber, and loss-of-control risks, so it is not currently safe to open source. Smaller, derived open variants are actively in development.
    • Meta remains committed to open sourcing models when safety allows, drawing a line through the Open Compute Project legacy and Sun Microsystems open-software heritage.
    • Wang dismisses reporting about a Wang-Zuck versus Bosworth-Cox split as “the line between gossip and reporting is remarkably thin.” He says leadership is aligned on needing best-in-class models and product integration.
    • On the Manus situation, Wang says it is too complicated to discuss publicly and that the deal status implies “machinations are still at play.”
    • On China, Wang separates the people from the state. He still wants to work with talented Chinese-born researchers regardless of his views on the Chinese Communist Party and PLA, which he sees as taking AI extremely seriously for national security.
    • The full-page New York Times AI war ad Wang ran while at Scale was meant to push the US government to treat AI as a step change for national security. He thinks events since then, including DeepSeek and other shocks, have proved that plea correct.
    • On Anthropic’s doom posture, Wang largely agrees with the core message that models are already very powerful and getting more so, while declining to endorse every specific claim.
    • Meta has acquired Assured Robot Intelligence (ARRI), an AI software company building models for hardware platforms, not a hardware maker itself.
    • Wang frames physical super intelligence as the natural sequel to digital super intelligence. Robotics, world models, and physical intelligence all benefit from the same scaling that drives language models.
    • On health, MSL is building a “health super intelligence” effort and will collaborate closely with CZI. Wang sees equal global access to powerful health AI as a uniquely Meta-shaped delivery problem.
    • Wang admires John Carmack but says nobody really knows what Carmack is currently working on. No band reunion announced.
    • The mango model is “alive and kicking” despite rumors. Wang notes MSL gets a small fraction of the rumor-mill attention other labs get and feels sympathy for them.
    • On model welfare, Wang says it is a serious topic that “nobody is talking about enough” given how integrated models have become as work partners. He references research, including from Eleos, that measures subjective experience of models.
    • Wang’s critical-path technology list: super intelligence, robotics, brain computer interfaces. The infinite-scale primitives behind them are energy, compute, and robots.
    • FAIR’s brain research program Tribe hit a milestone called Tribe B2: a foundation model that can predict how an unknown person’s brain would respond to images, video, and audio with reasonable zero-shot generalization.
    • Wang’s main philosophical break with Elon Musk: research itself is the primary activity. Building super intelligence is a research expedition through fog of war, and sequencing of bets really matters.
    • Personal notes: Wang moved from San Francisco to the South Bay, treats Palo Alto as his city now, was a math olympiad competitor, says his favorite activities are reading sci-fi and walking in the woods, and bonds with Vance over country music.

    Detailed Summary

    How MSL Is Actually Organized

    Meta Superintelligence Labs sits as the umbrella organization that Wang oversees. Inside it, TBD Lab is the large-model research group where the most discussed researchers and infrastructure engineers sit, and they technically report to Wang. PAR, Product and Applied Research, is led by Nat Friedman and owns deployment and product surfaces. FAIR continues to run exploratory science, including work on brain prediction models and a universal model for atoms used in computational chemistry. Sitting alongside MSL is Meta Compute, run by Daniel Gross, which owns the long-horizon GPU and data center plan that everything else relies on. Chief scientist Shengjia Zhao orchestrates the scientific agenda across the whole lab.

    Why Wang Left Scale

    Wang says progress in frontier AI has been faster than even insiders expected. Two structural beliefs pushed him toward Meta. First, the labs that actually train the frontier models are accruing disproportionate economic and product rights in the AI ecosystem. Second, compute is the dominant scarce input of the next phase, so the right mental model is to treat tech companies with compute as fundamentally different animals from companies without it. Meta has both, Zuck is “AGI pilled,” and the personal super intelligence memo Zuck published roughly a year ago became the shared north star.

    The Diagnosis: Llama Was Off-Trajectory

    When Wang arrived, the existing AI org needed a reset because Llama was not on the same trajectory as the frontier. The plan he laid out has four cultural principles. Take superintelligence seriously as a real near-term target. Make technical voices the loudest in the room. Demand scientific rigor and focus on basics. Make big bets. On top of that, three structural levers were used to set velocity. Push compute per researcher much higher than at larger labs where compute is diluted across too many efforts. Keep the team small and extremely cracked. Allocate a meaningful share of resources to ambitious, paradigm-shifting research bets rather than incremental refinement.

    Recruiting, Soup, and the Mercenary Narrative

    Wang argues the reporting on MSL hiring overstated the money story. Most of the people MSL recruited had strong financial paths at their previous employers, so individualized recruiting was more about computing access, talent density, and the ability to make big research bets. The recruitment blitz happened fast because Wang knew the team needed to exist “yesterday.” Asked about Mark Chen’s claim that Zuck made soup to recruit people, Wang refuses to confirm or deny who made it but agrees the process was intense and personal. Visitors from other labs reportedly tell Wang the MSL culture feels like early OpenAI or early Anthropic, which lands as the strongest endorsement he could ask for.

    Receiving the Public Hits: Young, Inexperienced, Mercenary

    LeCun called Wang young and inexperienced shortly after departing. The two reconnected in India a few weeks later and LeCun congratulated Wang on MuseSpark. Wang says the age critique has followed him since his earliest Silicon Valley days, so he barely registers it. Altman, asked off-camera by Vance about Wang’s appearance on the show, had nothing flattering to add. Wang’s response is to bet that as the field gets closer to actual super intelligence, the personal animosities will subside. Whether they will is, as Vance puts it, an open question.

    MuseSpark as Appetizer, Not Entree

    Wang is careful not to oversell MuseSpark. He calls it “the appetizer” and says it is an early data point on a deliberately constructed scaling ladder. MSL spent nine months rebuilding the pre-training stack, the reinforcement learning stack, the data pipeline, and the science before generating MuseSpark. The point of releasing it was to show that the new program scales predictably along multiple axes (pre-training, RL, test-time compute, and the recently demonstrated multi-agent scaling visible in MuseSpark’s 16-agent content planning mode). Wang says the upcoming larger models are what MSL is genuinely excited about and frames the next two rungs as much more interesting than the current release.

    Token Efficiency Was the Surprise

    MuseSpark’s strongest competitive signal is how few tokens it needs to match competitors on tasks like Artificial Analysis. Wang attributes this to having had the rare luxury of building a clean pre-training and RL stack from scratch with the right experts. He speculates that some competitor models compensate for upstream inefficiency by allowing the model to think longer, which inflates token usage without improving the underlying capability. If that read is right, MSL’s efficiency advantage should grow as models scale up.

    Glasses, WhatsApp, and the Constellation of Devices

    Personal super intelligence shows up at Meta as a constellation of devices that capture context across the user’s day. Ray-Ban Meta glasses are the headline product, with the AI seeing what you see and hearing what you hear, then offering proactive insight or doing background research. Wang acknowledges that even AI-fluent users like Kylie Robinson, who runs her business inside WhatsApp, have not naturally used Meta’s AI buttons in the family of apps. His answer is that Meta deliberately waited for models to be good enough before tightening cross-app integration, and that integration phase is starting now.

    Country of Geniuses Versus Economy of Agents

    Wang’s framing of Meta’s strategic position is the most memorable line in the interview. Where Dario Amodei talks about a country of geniuses in a data center, Wang wants to build an economy of agents in a data center. Meta uniquely sits on both sides of consumer and small-business surface area, with billions of consumers and hundreds of millions of small businesses already on the platforms. If MSL can build great agents for both, then connect them so they transact and coordinate, the platform becomes a substrate for an entirely new kind of digital economy.

    Consumer Sentiment, Product Overhang, and the Trust Tax

    Wang concedes consumer AI sentiment is poor and that everyday users have not yet had a personal Claude Code moment. He believes the only durable answer is to ship products that genuinely transform individual agency for non-developers and small business owners. Robinson notes that for the small-town restaurant whose website has not been updated since 2002, a working agent on the business side could be transformational. Vance pushes that Meta carries a bigger trust tax than any other lab, so the bar for shipping AI products that the public will accept is correspondingly higher. Wang accepts the framing and says the answer is to keep building thoughtfully.

    Why MuseSpark Cannot Be Open Sourced Yet

    Meta’s Advanced AI Scaling Framework set explicit guardrails around bio, chem, cyber, and loss-of-control risks. MuseSpark in its current form tripped some of those internal evaluations, documented in the preparedness report Meta published alongside the model. So MuseSpark itself is not safe to open source. MSL is, however, developing smaller versions and derived models intended for open release, with active reviews happening the day of the interview. Wang reaffirms the commitment to open source where safety allows and draws a line back to the Open Compute Project and the Sun Microsystems-era ethos of openness in infrastructure.

    The Bosworth, Cox, and Manus Questions

    The reporting that Wang and Zuck push toward best-in-the-world research while Bosworth and Cox push toward cheap product deployment is dismissed as gossip dressed up as journalism. Wang says leadership debates points hard but is aligned on needing top models, integrating them into Meta’s surfaces, and serving the existing business. On Manus, the Chinese AI startup that figured in Meta’s late-stage strategy, Wang says he cannot comment, which itself signals that the situation is unresolved.

    China, National Security, and the Newspaper Ad

    Wang draws a sharp distinction between the Chinese state and Chinese-born researchers. His parents are from China, he is happy to work with talented researchers regardless of origin, and he sees a flattening of nuance on this question inside Silicon Valley. At the same time, he stands by the New York Times AI and war ad he ran while at Scale, framing it as an early plea for the US government to take AI seriously as a national security technology. He thinks subsequent events, including DeepSeek and other shocks, validated that call and that policymakers now do treat AI accordingly.

    Robotics and Physical Super Intelligence

    Meta has acquired Assured Robot Intelligence, an AI software company that builds models for multiple hardware targets rather than its own robot. Wang argues that if you take digital super intelligence seriously, physical super intelligence quickly becomes the next logical milestone. Scaling laws for robotic intelligence look similar enough to language model scaling that having the largest compute footprint in the industry would be wasted if it were not also turned toward world modeling and embodied learning. He grants the metaverse-skeptic critique exists but says retreating from ambition is the wrong response to past misfires.

    Health Super Intelligence and CZI

    Wang names health super intelligence as one of MSL’s anchor initiatives. Because billions of people already use Meta products daily, Wang believes Meta is structurally positioned to put powerful health AI in the hands of equal global access in a way nobody else can. The work will involve close collaboration with the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, which has its own multi-billion-dollar biotech and science investment program.

    Model Welfare, Sci-Fi, and Brain Models

    Two of the most distinctive moments come at the end. Wang flags model welfare as a topic he thinks is being undercovered relative to how integrated models now are in daily work. He is open to the idea that models may have measurable subjective experience worth weighing, and points to research efforts (including Eleos) trying to quantify it. He also reveals that FAIR’s Tribe program, with its Tribe B2 milestone, has produced foundation models capable of predicting how an unknown person’s brain would respond to images, video, and audio with reasonable zero-shot generalization, a building block toward future brain computer interfaces. Wang lists brain computer interfaces alongside super intelligence and robotics as the critical-path technologies for humanity, with energy, compute, and robots as the infinitely scaling primitives behind them.

    Where Wang Diverges From Elon

    Asked whether Musk is more all-in on robotics, energy, and BCI than anyone, Wang concedes the point but argues the details matter and sequencing matters more. Wang’s core philosophical break is that building super intelligence is fundamentally a research activity, not a scaling-only sprint. The lab is operating in fog of war, and ambitious experiments are the only way to map it. That conviction is what makes MSL a research-led organization rather than a brute-force compute farm.

    Thoughts

    The most strategically interesting move in this entire interview is the “economy of agents in a data center” framing. It is a deliberate reframe against Anthropic’s “country of geniuses” line, and it does real work. A country of geniuses is a labor-substitution story aimed at knowledge workers and code. An economy of agents is a marketplace story that maps directly onto Meta’s two-sided distribution advantage: billions of consumers on one side, hundreds of millions of small businesses on the other. That positioning makes the agentic future Meta-shaped in a way no other frontier lab can claim, because no other frontier lab also owns the demand and supply graph of the global small-business economy. If Wang’s team can actually ship reliable agents on both sides plus the rails for them to transact, Meta’s structural moat in agentic commerce could exceed anything Llama ever had as an open model.

    The token efficiency claim is the strongest piece of technical evidence in the interview for the “clean stack” thesis. If MuseSpark really is matching competitors with materially fewer tokens, the implication is not that MuseSpark is the best model today, but that MSL has rebuilt the foundations with less accumulated tech debt than competitors that have layered fixes on top of older stacks. That is exactly the kind of advantage that compounds with scale. The next two model releases are the actual test. If Wang is right about predictable scaling on pre-training, RL, test-time, and multi-agent axes simultaneously, the gap from MuseSpark to the next rung should be visible in a way that forces re-rating of Meta’s position.

    The open-source posture is the cleanest signal of how the safety conversation has actually changed in 2026. Meta, the lab most identified with open weights, is saying out loud that its current frontier model triggered enough internal guardrails that releasing the weights is off the table. Wang threads the needle by promising smaller open variants, but the underlying point is unmistakable: the open-weights bargain has limits, and those limits will be set by internal preparedness frameworks rather than community pressure. That is a real shift from the Llama 2 era and worth tracking as the next generation lands.

    Wang’s willingness to engage on model welfare, on roughly the same footing as safety and alignment, is the second philosophical reveal worth flagging. It signals that the next generation of lab leadership is not going to dismiss the topic the way the previous generation often did. Whether that translates into product or policy changes is unclear, but the fact that the head of MSL says it is “underdiscussed” is itself a marker.

    Finally, the human texture of the interview matters. Wang has clearly absorbed a lot of personal incoming fire over the past ten months, including from LeCun and Altman, and his answer is consistently to redirect to the work. The Steve Jobs quote about hiring people who tell you what to do is the operating slogan he keeps coming back to. Combined with the genuine enthusiasm for sci-fi, walks in the woods, and country music, the picture that emerges is less the salesman caricature his critics paint and more a young technical operator betting that scoreboard work over a multi-year horizon will settle every argument that text on X cannot.

    Watch the full conversation here.

  • Andrej Karpathy on Vibe Coding vs Agentic Engineering: Why He Feels More Behind Than Ever in 2026

    Andrej Karpathy, co-founder of OpenAI, former head of AI at Tesla, and now founder of Eureka Labs, returned to Sequoia Capital’s AI Ascent 2026 stage for a wide-ranging conversation with partner Stephanie Zhan. One year after coining the term “vibe coding,” Karpathy unpacked what has changed, why he has never felt more behind as a programmer, and why the discipline emerging on top of vibe coding, which he calls agentic engineering, is the more serious craft worth learning right now.

    The conversation covered Software 3.0, the limits of verifiability, why LLMs are better understood as ghosts than animals, and why you can outsource your thinking but never your understanding. Below is a complete breakdown of the talk for anyone building, hiring, or learning in the agent era.

    TLDW

    Karpathy describes a sharp transition that happened in December 2025, when agentic coding tools crossed a threshold and code chunks just started coming out fine without correction. He frames the current moment as Software 3.0, where prompting an LLM is the new programming, and entire app categories are collapsing into a single model call. He distinguishes vibe coding (raising the floor for everyone) from agentic engineering (preserving the professional quality bar at much higher speed). Models remain jagged because they are trained on what labs choose to verify, so founders should look for valuable but neglected verifiable domains. Taste, judgment, oversight, and understanding remain uniquely human responsibilities, and tools that enhance understanding are the ones he is most excited about.

    Key Takeaways

    • December 2025 was a clear inflection point. Code chunks from agentic tools started arriving correct without edits, and Karpathy stopped correcting the system entirely.
    • Software 3.0 means programming has become prompting. The context window is your lever over the LLM interpreter, which performs computation in digital information space.
    • Open Code’s installer is a software 3.0 example. Instead of a complex shell script, you copy paste a block of text to your agent, and the agent figures out your environment.
    • The Menu Gen anecdote illustrates how entire apps can become spurious. What used to require OCR, image generation, and a hosted Vercell app can now be a single Gemini plus Nano Banana prompt.
    • Vibe coding raises the floor. Agentic engineering preserves the professional ceiling. The two are different disciplines.
    • The 10x engineer multiplier is now far higher than 10x for people who are good at agentic engineering.
    • Hiring processes have not caught up. Puzzle interviews are the old paradigm. New evaluations should look like building a full Twitter clone for agents and surviving simulated red team attacks from other agents.
    • Models are jagged because reinforcement learning rewards what is verifiable, and labs choose which verifiable domains to invest in. Strawberry letter counts and the 50 meter car wash question show how state-of-the-art models can refactor 100,000 line codebases yet fail at trivial reasoning.
    • If you are in a verifiable setting, you can run your own fine tuning, build RL environments, and benefit even when the labs are not focused on your domain.
    • LLMs are ghosts, not animals. They are statistical simulations summoned from pre training and shaped by RL appendages, not creatures with curiosity or motivation. Yelling at them does not help.
    • Taste, aesthetics, spec design, and oversight remain human jobs. Models still produce bloated, copy paste heavy code with brittle abstractions.
    • Documentation is still written for humans. Agent native infrastructure, where docs are explicitly designed to be copy pasted into an agent, is a major opportunity.
    • The future likely involves agent representation for people and organizations, with agents talking to other agents to coordinate meetings and tasks.
    • You can outsource your thinking but not your understanding. Tools that help humans understand information faster are uniquely valuable.

    Detailed Summary

    Why Karpathy Feels More Behind Than Ever

    Karpathy opens by describing how he has been using agentic coding tools for over a year. For most of that period, the experience was mixed. The tools could write chunks of code, but they often required edits and supervision. December 2025 changed everything. With more time during a holiday break and the release of newer models, Karpathy noticed that the chunks just came out fine. He kept asking for more. He cannot remember the last time he had to correct the agent. He started trusting the system, and what followed was a cascade of side projects.

    He wants to stress that anyone whose model of AI was formed by ChatGPT in early 2025 needs to look again. The agentic coherent workflow that genuinely works is a fundamentally different experience, and the transition was stark.

    Software 3.0 Explained

    The Software 1.0 paradigm was writing explicit code. Software 2.0 was programming by curating datasets and training neural networks. Software 3.0 is programming by prompting. When you train a GPT class model on a sufficiently large set of tasks, the model implicitly learns to multitask everything in the data. The result is a programmable computer where the context window is your interface, and the LLM is the interpreter performing computation in digital information space.

    Karpathy gives two concrete examples. The first is Open Code’s installer. Normally a shell script handles installation across many platforms, and these scripts balloon in complexity. Open Code instead provides a block of text you copy paste to your agent. The agent reads your environment, follows instructions, debugs in a loop, and gets things working. You no longer specify every detail. The agent supplies its own intelligence.

    The Menu Gen Story

    The second example is Karpathy’s Menu Gen project. He built an app that takes a photo of a restaurant menu, OCRs the items, generates pictures for each dish, and renders the enhanced menu. The app runs on Vercell and chains together multiple services. Then he saw a software 3.0 alternative. You take a photo, give it to Gemini, and ask it to use Nano Banana to overlay generated images onto the menu. The model returns a single image with everything rendered. The entire app he built is now spurious. The neural network does the work. The prompt is the photo. The output is the photo. There is no app between them.

    Karpathy uses this to argue that founders should not just think of AI as a speedup of existing patterns. Entirely new things become possible. His example is LLM driven knowledge bases that compile a wiki for an organization from raw documents. That is not a faster version of older code. It is a new capability with no prior equivalent.

    What Will Look Obvious in Hindsight

    Stephanie Zhan asks what the equivalent of building websites in the 1990s or mobile apps in the 2010s looks like today. Karpathy speculates about completely neural computers. Imagine a device that takes raw video and audio as input, runs a neural net as the host process, and uses diffusion to render a unique UI for each moment. He notes that early computing in the 1950s and 60s was undecided between calculator like and neural net like architectures. We went down the calculator path. He thinks the relationship may eventually flip, with neural networks becoming the host and CPUs becoming co processors used for deterministic appendages.

    Verifiability and Jagged Intelligence

    Karpathy spent significant writing time on verifiability. Classical computers automate what you can specify in code. The current generation of LLMs automates what you can verify. Frontier labs train models inside giant reinforcement learning environments, so the models peak in capability where verification rewards are strong, especially math and code. They stagnate or get rough around the edges elsewhere.

    This explains the jagged intelligence puzzle. The classic example was counting letters in strawberry. The newer one Karpathy offers: a state of the art model will refactor a 100,000 line codebase or find zero day vulnerabilities, then tell you to walk to a car wash 50 meters away because it is so close. The two coexisting capabilities should be jarring. They reveal that you must stay in the loop, treat models as tools, and understand which RL circuits your task lands in.

    He also points out that data distribution choices matter. The jump in chess capability from GPT 3.5 to GPT 4 came largely because someone at OpenAI added a huge amount of chess data to pre training. Whatever ends up in the mix gets disproportionately good. You are at the mercy of what labs prioritize, and you have to explore the model the labs hand you because there is no manual.

    Founder Advice in a Lab Dominated World

    Asked what founders should do given that labs are racing toward escape velocity in obvious verifiable domains, Karpathy points back to verifiability itself. If your domain is verifiable but currently neglected, you can build RL environments and run your own fine tuning. The technology works. Pull the lever with diverse RL environments and a fine tuning framework, and you get something useful. He hints there is one specific domain he finds undervalued but declines to name it on stage.

    On the question of what is automatable only from a distance, Karpathy says almost everything can ultimately be made verifiable. Even writing can be assessed by councils of LLM judges. The differences are in difficulty, not in possibility.

    From Vibe Coding to Agentic Engineering

    Vibe coding raises the floor. Anyone can build something. Agentic engineering preserves the professional quality bar that existed before. You are still responsible for your software. You are still not allowed to ship vulnerabilities. The question is how you go faster without sacrificing standards. Karpathy calls it an engineering discipline because coordinating spiky, stochastic agents to maintain quality at speed requires real skill.

    The ceiling on agentic engineering capability is very high. The old idea of a 10x engineer is now an understatement. People who are good at this peak far above 10x.

    What Mediocre Versus AI Native Looks Like

    Karpathy compares this to how different generations use ChatGPT. The difference between a mediocre and an AI native engineer using Claude Code, Codex, or Open Code is investment in setup and full use of available features. The same way previous generations of engineers got the most out of Vim or VSCode, today’s strong engineers tune their agentic environments deeply.

    He thinks hiring processes have not caught up. Most companies still hand out puzzles. The new test should look like asking a candidate to build a full Twitter clone for agents, make it secure, simulate user activity with agents, and then run multiple Codex 5.4x high instances trying to break it. The candidate’s system should hold up.

    What Humans Still Own

    Agents are intern level entities right now. Humans are responsible for aesthetics, judgment, taste, and oversight. Karpathy describes a Menu Gen bug where the agent tried to associate Stripe purchases with Google accounts using email addresses as the key, instead of a persistent user ID. Email addresses can differ between Stripe and Google accounts. This kind of specification level mistake is exactly what humans must catch.

    He works with agents to design detailed specs and treats those as documentation. The agent fills in the implementation. He has stopped memorizing API details for things like NumPy axis arguments or PyTorch reshape versus permute. The intern handles recall. Humans handle architecture, design, and the right questions.

    Reading the actual code agents produce can still cause heart attacks. It is bloated, full of copy paste, riddled with awkward and brittle abstractions. His Micro GPT project, an attempt to simplify LLM training to its bare essence, was nearly impossible to drive through agents. The models hate simplification. That capability sits outside their RL circuits. Nothing is fundamentally preventing this from improving. The labs simply have not invested.

    Animals Versus Ghosts

    Karpathy returns to his framing that we are not building animals, we are summoning ghosts. Animal intelligence comes from evolution and is shaped by intrinsic motivation, fun, curiosity, and empowerment. LLMs are statistical simulation circuits where pre training is the substrate and RL is bolted on as appendages. They are jagged. They do not respond to being yelled at. They have no real curiosity. The ghost framing is partly philosophical, but it changes how you approach them. You stay suspicious. You explore. You do not assume the system you used yesterday will behave the same on a new task.

    Agent Native Infrastructure

    Most software, frameworks, libraries, and documentation are still written for humans. Karpathy’s pet peeve is being told to do something instead of being given a block of text to copy paste to his agent. He wants agent first infrastructure. The Menu Gen project’s hardest part was not writing code. It was deploying on Vercell, configuring DNS, navigating service settings, and stringing together integrations. He wants to give a single prompt and have the entire thing deployed without touching anything.

    Long term he expects agent representation for individuals and organizations. His agent will negotiate meeting details with your agent. The world becomes one of sensors, actuators, and agent native data structures legible to LLMs.

    Education and What Still Matters

    The most striking line of the conversation comes near the end. Karpathy quotes a tweet that shaped his thinking: you can outsource your thinking but you cannot outsource your understanding. Information still has to make it into your brain. You still need to know what you are building and why. You cannot direct agents well if you do not understand the system.

    This is part of why he is so excited about LLM driven knowledge bases. Every time he reads an article, his personal wiki absorbs it, and he can query it from new angles. Every projection onto the same information yields new insight. Tools that enhance human understanding are uniquely valuable because LLMs do not excel at understanding. That bottleneck is yours to manage.

    Thoughts

    The most useful frame in this talk is the distinction between vibe coding and agentic engineering. It clarifies what has been muddled for the past year. Vibe coding is about access. Anyone can produce something. Agentic engineering is about discipline. You preserve the standards that made software trustworthy in the first place, while moving at speeds that would have seemed absurd two years ago. These are not the same activity, and conflating them is part of why so many shipped products feel half built.

    The Menu Gen anecdote is the kind of story that should make every solo developer pause. If a single Gemini plus Nano Banana prompt can replace a multi service Vercell deployed app, the question for any builder becomes how much of what you are working on right now is going to be made spurious by the next model release. The honest answer is probably more than you want to admit. The defensive posture is not building thicker apps. It is choosing problems where the model alone is not enough, where taste, distribution, infrastructure, or specific verifiable RL environments give you something the next model cannot collapse into a prompt.

    The verifiability lens is also unusually practical. If you are a solo builder, the question shifts from what is possible to what is verifiable but neglected. The labs will eat the obvious verifiable domains because that is how their RL pipelines are set up. The opportunity is in domains where verification is possible but the labs have not yet invested. That is a much more concrete strategic filter than vague intuitions about defensibility.

    The car wash example is going to stick. State of the art models can refactor enormous codebases and still tell you to walk somewhere a sane person would drive. That is the lived reality of jagged intelligence, and it argues strongly for staying in the loop on real decisions rather than handing off everything to agents. The agents are excellent fillers of blanks. They are not yet trustworthy specifiers of the spec.

    Finally, the line about outsourcing thinking but not understanding is worth taping above the desk. The bottleneck is no longer typing speed, syntax recall, or even API knowledge. It is whether the human in the loop actually understands the system being built. Tools that genuinely improve human understanding, including personal knowledge bases that re project information through different prompts, are likely the most undervalued category of products being built right now. The opportunity is not just in agents. It is in the cognitive scaffolding that makes humans good directors of agents.